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Discussion in '360/430' started by smdzucladoc, Jun 21, 2019.
Chris Harris talkes about the Pista and the prior 3 cars Start at 5:20
Interesting analysis/evaluation of the four
I would take my 675 over all 4, it feels like it’s on a different plain from anything else in its price range. I also love my 430 spider though for the load raucous Ferrari experience.
At six minutes in he described the CS as overvalued. I think he is wrong. The market has spoken, and they prefer the CS.
And I for one am fine with the CS being worth more, I prefer the Scuderia, a better car in every measurable way except in the wallet.
I find it funny how even today the first and biggest thing a CS owner rants about is its value and nothing else...as a former CS owner I find that a bloody shame.
Chris has driven the whole lot of them and taken them closer to the limit than most of us would ever dare, so for me his sentiments carry a lot of weight.
I appreciate the assessment of Chris very much, he is probably the least biased of all of us.
Of course, that Chris would choose the Scuderia flatters me.
But it is understandable. Every time when I sit in the Scuderia I say to myself: simply unique, such a car was never built again and I dare say will never built again. If you would like to have a comparable feeling and impression you have to go in a completely different price class (F40, F50 or an Enzo).
Actually, the Scuderia is a lucky coincidence. With the CS Ferrari has found the market niche and defined it, the Scuderia is the perfection of this niche. With the Speciale Ferrari already wanted too much and diluted the CS/Scuderia DNA too much for a too wide audience. Commercial thinking was more important than extreme uncompromisingness.
Oh and there is still something regarding "a lucky conicidence", I remember oh him allways when I press the chassis damper button.
I don't buy things that aren't considered "valuable". If you want performance buy a Corvette. Performance is cheap nowadays...... value is not.
Conversely, a sports car is by definition something meant to be driven at a high performance level and compared as such. a toy to play with.
If you want value, buy stocks.
The market of collectors or the market of drivers?
I think there may be 2.
Because familiarity breeds contempt, the only slight increase in power over a Modena (arguably the greatest knock against this generation) and the somewhat primitive transmission will always leave me underwhelmed with a CS, no matter how much more raw it is from a Modena. The 430 family addresses some of that, so I’d agree with Harris, that the Scud is the Goldilocks car.
All great cars, no disrespect to the owners. I’m envious of you all!
But with my money, the values are not correct relative to each other.
FWIW, my choice would be the 16m.
I think I may agree.
Didn't think it was possible to like Harris more as an auto journalist, but I do now.
The corvette isn’t a sports car?
There are lots of ways to make money. One of those ways is buying and selling collectible Ferrari’s. I love the Ferrari market. The speed limit where I live is 55 and the traffic sucks and the pot holes are worse.
This is why I like Chris Harris so much... smart dude.
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I like Chris Harris, he's near as dammit a pro driver and even he thinks Pista levels of performance in a road car is getting silly. Very interesting. I agree.
I would argue that actually the CS is probably the best car suited to most Sunday drive quick blast around road use than all of those in the piece because its performance is more accessible and enjoyable within speeds you can actually use on a typical road. Also the way it makes you feel, the so called emotional connection I'd say is more racer feeling, it feels closer to that of a challenge car than the Scud, especially if fitted with lexan side windows. It also requires more skill to drive fast and will bite too if your clumsy as it doesn't have ESP.
The Scud feels much more like a polished but focused RS style road car, more refined. The difference ofcourse for him is the grunt. The Scud is quite a bit quicker so still can be peddled to very good circuit times, even today. He also cited only 20hp difference from literature, reality is on dyno days I went to its actually more like 40hp because standard exhaust 360's never made the full 400hp, they needed the optional sports exhaust to make that figure.
In my eyes everything that comes after is simply too fast for most drivers and most roads or less involving at lower speeds that most roads you get to drive on could endure. Doesn't really matter what speed your doing in a CS, its always fun!
The CS does however really need a soft dampers mode but actually it's trivial to add, just a spare button and a couple of hours to fit it.
I'd love a Scud.
6MT 360 for that gated shifter, and then a 430 Scud, perfect combo!
Having owned both for many years if you think the 360CS is a better car than the 430 Scuderia, you are most certainly WRONG ! , the 360CS is certainly more beautiful and the market might have spoken for now, but as Chris Harris notes the SCUD with its Superfast2 gearbox and VASTLY superior Engine, means that once it gets out of its in between Modern to Classic status, will be back in the lead & if you own a CS the best advice anyone in the know can give you, is to swap it for a SCUD and cash in the difference
In fairness, if a current owner is content with the CS performance and the higher market value, there’s really no need to change anything. New owners may be better advised of the relative bargain of the Scud.
360Trev makes an interesting point. I wonder if certain cars are better suited to Europe vs NA, and our different roads, driving styles, and other cars in the market. My hunch is, “grunt” is a higher priority on this side of the pond.
Certainly appreciate your POV (except for thinking a CS is better looking), but I think the CS being the first of its breed, being the closest to a race car by design, and having half the production will always keep it ahead value wise. But the lesser performance and clunky transmission of the CS will keep putting plenty of butts in Scuderias as well. #firstworldproblems
I've no skin in the game not being the owner of any of these, but I have driven the CS, Scud, Speciale and Pista for review. I'm a journalist but not a motoring journalist like Chris Harris - cars are a sideline to the main job. (I also own a few Ferraris.). So small print over, I would, like Chris, also take the Scud of all of these. Why? The CS is a a little bit dated - it didn't feel that fast even at its media reveal. The Speciale meanwhile heralded the start of the age when, for me, Ferraris become too fast to enjoy on normal roads. The Pista is more of the same.
The Scuderia is just right. I don't know why it's so cheap.
I chose my gated manual 430 Spider over a Scud (price difference not that much) because I love convertibles and manuals, and I would do that again, but that was/is a personal decision. The Scuderia may be the best Ferrari I have ever driven.
The 360 was designed in the late 90's and some 360's are now a couple of decades old now so the fact we can even compare a mildly breathed on design over a car half its age is quite impressive. Shows how advanced the fundamentals where back then. Without the 360 there would be no 430 Scuderia!
The Scud may be better for some but certainly not everybody. And that's the thing about this there are multiple factors deciding what cars end up in your garages. Quicker, without doubt, faster shifting, yes but then so are so many other modern cars, even mainstream cars like Audi's (my tuned Bentley has over 700hp these days!). Therefore I really think its not as black and white, its got to stir you in some way. Like I said its about 20%+ improved in pretty much all areas.
Even now there are many compelling reasons for owning a Classic Strad (yes even over a 430 Scuderia) and one part of this ofcourse is the driving experience. I think what people don't realize is that you really need to drive both cars very differently driving style. You drive the Scud on torque whereas you drive the CS on rev's so need to keep it in the sweet spot of 6k to 8.6k. They are very different animals indeed and if your coming straight out of a Scud and you don't remap your brain you may be disappointed with the lack of torque for the weight its hauling. Believe it or not if you re-calibrate your driving style and keep the rev's high in their sweet spot, leaning on the mechanical grip carrying more speed into corners you can keep up in a stock CS with a Scuderia quite well and even overtake. I have an old Ford Racing Puma and it only has 150 odd hp but has tonnes of mechanical grip. In the twisty tracks I regularly overtake supercars with 3 times the power, only on the straights do they blast past but that doesn't detract from the enjoyment I have driving it. Keeping the engine screaming is just an experience that defines driving a CS fast, it really gets under your skin. On the track yes another 100hp would really help but there are ways to achieve this without adding 1 extra hp, drop weight!
Residuals and future classic status obviously play on some people decision but then so does styling which is 100% subjective. Step out of any McLaren and into the Scud and it honestly feels under powered. It also feels its age a bit more, like it has a less capable chassis thats harder to drive approaching the limit than the modern electronics package cars but that doesn't necessarily mean its 'better' or 'worse', it demands more from you, just like older cars demand you be more in tune with the driving. It is ofcourse a very subjective topic and some people will value different things higher up their list. Obviously some people are still hung up on absolute power and yes it can be intoxicating but its not the only thing. Hell I cannot talk, I'm building a 950hp McLaren right now
Lets talk about vastly superior for a moment. Engine wise the sonics just don't do it for me on the Scud. I think the engine sounds vastly inferior and I rate sonics more highly than most so I junked 250kgs out to get the bhp per tonne up to match the Scuderia. Result is a car with same power to weight as a Scud but with more agility in the corners, literally feels like a house fly! Best way to describe it is drive a Challenge car and then go back to driving a road car. Numb in comparison and that's why its so difficult to compare cars.
The CS is plenty fast enough enough for the give and take roads with congestion, tractors and cyclists. One last thought is that a 488 Spider is now faster than the F50.. Which would you rather own?? Hmmm....
All of the reply above is well said but I snipped that end piece to simply reintegrate a small point. That is that while some may say that the CS may be considered dated, so are the Gullwing Mercedes, and the Daytona coupe, as is the 250 GTO...
But there are still no other cars that I would want to drive more. I like the Scud too, but I chose the Stradale.
Different strokes for different folks; we've all voted with our wallets as to which cars we own. Some are even lucky enough to have both or all three! They're all amazing cars, and to me among the very best cars Ferrari has made. We're all very fortunate to have them, whichever one we have.
I had a 360 MT that I aligned for Hoosiers, ran aggressive pads, fabricated brake ducts, and a harness bar system with bucket seats. I tracked the car a good bit, and it was competitive with GT3's of the day. I loved the car for it's lightness (compared to the 430), but driven aggressively at our southern tracks, I got tired of the engine (and I suspect the gearbox) running way too hot for my comfort. My understanding was the CS had similar cooling from a student's CS I drove at Sebring, which ran hot too with me driving. I drove a Student's f430 at Sebring under similar ambient temps, and the engine oil temps ran cool, consistently, and the car seemed a lot more sorted (except for the extra weight of the 430), as it should being an evolution. That's what led me to the scud at the time. Ironically, being able to cope better at the track like my Porsche was the driving force of buying the scud, but I only tracked the scud one time and haven't taken it back since in 5 years ownership..... That lends itself to another observation Chris made in the Pista review: the car for me was too expensive and too nice to beat up on track. I was club racing a GT3 cup car by then, and just stuck with the racing, and kinda quit doing DE's, or atleast just took the race car for the few I did do to hang out with friends.
For me, the priority order of the SE's is scud>speciale>stradale>pista. The scud is the right mix of speed and character to me. I do Sunday morning drives with a friend with a 2019 GT3RS, and we swap back and forth. At the speeds we run without being too silly, you're working in the scud, but barely breaking a sweat in the RS. The RS is still fun, but not as engaging as you're not near it's limit. My buddy says the same, and he drives his GT3 touring most of the time, b/c on the street he says it's more fun, and I agree. On track though, the RS comes alive, is in it's element. Pista, and to some degree speciale are probably the same.
With the pricing of the speciale, I've thought about adding a stradale instead one day, but I'm aiming for the speciale. The stradale is just too close to the scud in similarity. I think you're either a strad guy or a scud guy, unless you can have both. Speciale is a significantly different car, as it's a completely different design...
I think values will always be strong on the stradale as it's more rare, and pretty. I think the scud's day in the sun will come too (speaking from a guy with 25k miles and climbing and loving every minute of it), whose will never be a high dollar scud. I've had Ferrari's long enough to witness the pattern of the value staying up with people opining that it will always be high, to watching them fall and everyone wondering why, to them creeping back up becasue they were the last of this or that. Given history, even using the stradale as an example, I'm sure scuds will go up some unknown degree, and speciale's will fall and later rise too.... Hopefully I will be ready to jump on one when my money and speciale values align.
Just on the heat thing... Its really easy to reduce engine temps by 1/3rd on any 360 almost instantly. Restrict the EGR flowing back into the throttle bodies by 50% or flow gases back into a catch can, job done. Also improves mid range torque too and peak hp.
What is the weight difference between the lightest spec Scud, Stradale, and Speciale?