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Scud over CS and Speciale Chris Harris

Discussion in '360/430' started by smdzucladoc, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    #101 f355spider, Jul 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
    Come to think of it, there is a video of a stock 360 versus a 360 CS and the stock car was actually beating it in a roll on....I will try to find it. edit: no luck, but the video was of Rob Ferretti doing roll ons. He's in a stock 360 against a 360 CS on the freeway and they did multiple roll ons, and they beat the CS every time and he couldn't believe it.
     
  2. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    So many variable its pointless to compare without a baseline of at least the following.

    1. Kerb weight (measured on same scales back to back) with same level of fuel in each car (not relying on fuel gauge which can be waaay off).
    2. Left and right bank timing differential (if the belts have been done and not aligned perfectly they can still be within tolerances of manuals but waaay down on power).
    3. State of the maintenance, ignition coils, plugs, primary o2 sensors, afm's, air filters, oil, oil filter, etc.
    4. State of the fuel, is it old poor octane or lower octane cheap stuff?
    5. Current Mileage. Chances are if the car has less than 10k on the odo it will be waaay down on power vs a car with over 25k+...
    6. Tires. On original rock hard rubber?
    7. Euro vs US spec car? The eu cars made more power due to less emissions kit, no header cats, etc.
    8. Driving style, current gear your in, point in the rev range, etc. when they started
    9. Are you really sure it was stock (perhaps ecu was tuned...who'd know?)...

    I could go on and on. Makes for a great YouTube video though...
     
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  3. Hocakes

    Hocakes Karting

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  4. Tamahal

    Tamahal Formula Junior

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    Interesting .... so #5, the more miles on the odo, the more power the car makes ????


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  5. italiafan

    italiafan F1 Veteran

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  6. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Yes, to the point where the engine is fully bedded in. Then it makes optimum power until it wears substantially (at very very high mileages if well serviced) or it gets deposits and needs cleaning.
     
  7. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    Yeah but this isn't a one off unfortunately, I put my CS on a dyno and the results were not great and that's being generous vs my other cars on same dyno where they were
     
  8. Tamahal

    Tamahal Formula Junior

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    I see.... that’s awesome.


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  9. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    I had my CS, F430 Spider and Scuderia from new or 2k miles, I dont recall my F430 Spider or Scud lacking any power in the first 10k miles ....
     
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  10. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    They are bedded in to a point at factory these days on dyno machines before even fitted but peak power comes later in their mileage life.

    You'll make as much as 30hp more when fully bedded in vs a new tight engine.
     
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  11. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    Furthermore the CS apparently had a "blueprinted engine" so should need even less running in than any other car, I will look to see if I still have by CS dyno, reality is reality
     
  12. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    I went to a dyno and we did over 25 cars which wasn't a bad sample.. Every stock car over 20k made more power than under.

    Just because an engine is blueprinted doesn't mean it doesn't need some bedding in. It just means it's better balanced so will rev more freely with less internal vibration etc. and absolutely yes less bedding in is required when tolerances are even better but unlike the race cars it still takes some time and quite some mileage to accomplish this.

    As for dynos since every one is calibrated a bit differently youd need to compare against other 360s done on the same one even on same day if its not temperature and humidity controlled, which most certainly aren't unless they are calibration dynos and then its done out of car on a Bench.
     
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  13. Tamahal

    Tamahal Formula Junior

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    Wow!! I never knew that, 30hp is a lot ..


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  14. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    Understood, there are always variables to such unscientific tests. Both cars were supposedly stock...just found a piece of the clip in another of his videos (not the entire one where they did at least three runs) Starts at 1;14 and ends around 1:42
     
  15. bart12

    bart12 Formula 3
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    I am picking/leavings cars to keep until I get old. The SCUD would be one of them.

    The rest are all manual transmission cars.

    Havent owned a CS. Owned a Spec. Got a chance to get either a SCUD or a CS, I went to another SCUD.

    If I where to choose from a CS or a Spec, probably Ill pick a CS.

    Just me.
     
  16. LightGuy

    LightGuy Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Meh.

    Something was wrong either in the"foot down" times or the SC's engine management.

    Common sense and physics will tell you a lighter faster shifting car with more horse power will be faster.
    Let's not kid ourselves.
     
  17. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

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    #117 freshmeat, Jul 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
    Sorry, no disrespect here but I have to call bullsh*t on this.

    When I sold my CS I had 27k miles and a full tubi header, cat, muffler setup. I was still putting down way less power than advertised on the dyno.

    Ain’t gonna lie either, it was a big reason why I sold it, the other being getting smoked by a beat up but modded RX7 on the highway which for me was utterly embarassing.

     
  18. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    Wait, you're speaking of your CS?
     
  19. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

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    Yeap
     
  20. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    so many cars, so little time.

    i love the cs. i like the scud. i love the speciale, i like the pista.

    i thunk there is always a blend of performance and romance that hits people differently.

    thankfully.
     
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  21. jason1st

    jason1st F1 Veteran

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    Nurburgring lap times

    CS 7:56
    SCUD 7:39

    Both way down the list below Corvettes and 911s. If you want to beat modded RX7s you should drive an even more modded RX7.
     
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  22. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

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    Corvette or 911 not necessary, just a stock scud was adequate to take it down, even when the rx7 had a headstart =)

    And interestingly, an 11-year old Scuderia driven by a non-pro still makes the cut for the top 100 Nurburgring lap times @ #57:
    https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/

    Not too shabby at all!

     
  23. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    No bull. The engine and mapping on the 360 isn't setup out of the box for torque at cruising revs, it's all about delivery of its power high up in the rev range, you need to keep it over 7.5k rpm to make any decent lap times and it's hard work but can be quick. Just putting your foot down and dropping a gear isn't what it's about. It's torque curve and emission mapping doesn't allow it. Also if you did headers, cat and backbox without appropriate mapping you probably didn't gain much if anything over +5%, mostly noise from your investment. You need to remap correctly on a dyno and for best gains you would have had to swap to larger fuel injectors, throttle bodies and raise the artificial rev limiter to around 9k.

    I recall doing some even basic dyno testing years ago and I managed to tweak over 40ft pounds gain to 315ft pounds vs stock 275ft pounds and that was with stock eu cats and factory catless headers. So yes it can respond well but you need to decide what your after. More torque or more peak hp. Scud has 347ft pounds so I was only down by 32ft pounds. Tuning for torque makes a considerable difference vs tracks where your always near redline and peak power output.

    I posted these in another thread recently but useful to get your head around...

    360 (non Cs) baseline map
    360 Challenge race car map
    430 Scuderia map

    These are driver demanded Lambda, air to fuel ratios. The Scud engine has also been mapped conservatively and especially for emissions. Neither road car makes its optimal power at all points in rev range, they tuned for fuel economy and emissions for a large part of the bands.
     

    Attached Files:

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  24. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    #124 360trev, Jul 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
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  25. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    none of this gets round the fact that the CS is significantly & probably more than official stats "significantly underpowered" vs the Scud
     

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