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430 Scuderia F430 2008 F1 CF301 4->5 then NEUTRAL when HOT

Discussion in '360/430' started by Rinaldi, Nov 18, 2019.

  1. Rinaldi

    Rinaldi Rookie

    Sep 18, 2019
    5
    Full Name:
    HENRIQUE RINALDI
    Hello All



    I am from Brazil, I have a Scuderia 2008 with 29k km ( 18k miles). This car’s gearbox started shifting itself to Neutral when I shift from 4 to 5th, only if I am under 4k rpm. And only after more then 30 minutes driving the car. If I shift in Superfast mode (more then 4k and more 50% throttle), the system works fine. If I put the 5th, in Superfast mode, I can go to 6, 5, 4, 3, 4, 5, 6 with no problems. If I do 2 gear, then 3, 4….. no 5. It will only shift properly from 4 to 5 with Superfast or in normal mode, with the car cold.



    The car, in the begging of my problem, had always shown P1768 ( the error regarding the Superfast not learned.) I trained several times to do this calibration, some times with SD3, TEXA or with LAUNCH with no success. Even to do DEIS CALIBRATION, after the fail in DEIS, the car would not start. We started changing the clutch, and I will list all the actions that we already attempted to solve the problem.



    Clutch 222090

    Clutch bearing 234943

    Mouting Flange 207539

    And clutch position sensor. 219340



    After this, DEIS calibration worked, only if I tried with car yet cold, if the car runs more then 10 minutes, I got the message, DEIS FAILED CLUTCH SOLENOID EXCESSIVE CLEARANCE - ( something like that ). If I wait, DEIS START TO WORK again. But the main symptom, remains. 4-5 after cars is hot.



    I had the brilliant ideia to cool down the clutch pressure sensor 203294, I did this, the car came back to work. I tried to measure the temperature on the sensor with a laser gun, and the temperature was about 120 Celsius degrees when the car start to fail. On the next day, I warmed up the sensor with a heater gun, until 120 celsius, without turn on the engine… As soon I started the car, I start to have problems….



    Then we bought a new pressure sensor, 203294. Nothing changed… I started to think that my actuator had too much play, because the pot values are to different, as you move the finger by hand. I went to the US, and rebuild the actuator with GTE Engineering. They tested everything and told me that my actuator had a lot play, and also some leakage. Serkan seems to do a nice work, and rebuild my actuator.



    I installed it again, and had the same issue. Problem 4 to 5 when the car is hot, under no load….



    After this, we disassemble the valve body, cleaned in ultrasonic cube. We changed the EVF solenoid, that have too much leakage 100-150 cc/mim. My pump was Turing on so often, like every 30, 40 seconds… after the new EVF, we start to have 6 to 7 minutes in idle, before pump on. Now we have 10.2 cc/mim and 13.2 cc/min.



    Nothing changed in the main symptom.



    The car was not able to complete the Superfast self learning. I checked the current in the pump motor with the oscilloscope and realize the the motor is starting to fail… I put a new motor 248083, then the car start to do the super fast learning, no more P1768. Any error.



    Nothing changed in the main symptom.



    Now the car can do self learning, DEIS, Superfast calibration, my delta actuator center changes between -102 and -118. But the main symptom do not change. When my Evaluated transmission oil temperature goes above 50 degrees Celsius., the problem start to happen.



    Somewhere in this meantime, I bought also a new TCU. My original TCU is 02.10.08 SW: EAGD51W07, and the new one is 26.08.16 SW: EAGD53Y04. Both TCU can do the 3 learning routines, When the problem starts, I can stop the car, change the TCU and nothing changes about the symptom.

    When the car fails, that gearbox sign in the dash stays on, I have no erros in the scanner. If ai tried to engage any gear, the system do not allow, I need to turn off the car, wait some seconds to the GEAR indicator in the dash to turn off, press both paddle to put the car again in neutral ( the car is already in neutral, some times flashing, some times no), start the car again, and everything start to work again, the car will fail in 4-5, with light load, under 4k rpm, If I go to 5 by "Superfast", I can use 6, 5, 4, 3, 4, 5, 6 or any sequence, with no problem. IF, for any reason, I put the 2 gear... 3, 4, when it arrive at 5, the problem will appear again.



    I am using 75w140 MOTUL GEAR FF on my gearbox, but I have the same issue with the original Shell, with 75w90 MOTUL gear and with 75w90LS MOTUL.



    In the F1 I am already trend CHF 11S, MOTUL MULTI ATF, and Shell DONAX. No changes in my symptom. I am uploading some videos and photos to Youtube to show exactly the problem.



    Anyone have any other suggestion?

    Any advice would me much appreciated.

    Thanks in advance for reading my Scuderia novel until the end.
     
  2. mwstewart

    mwstewart Formula 3

    Feb 5, 2014
    1,558
    England
    Full Name:
    Mark
    Do you have the heat shield over the pressure sensor?
     
  3. mwstewart

    mwstewart Formula 3

    Feb 5, 2014
    1,558
    England
    Full Name:
    Mark
    Please post a photo of the sensor as it is currently installed.
     
  4. danny_acs

    danny_acs Karting

    Aug 17, 2015
    94
    London, UK
    I had a similar issue two years ago, and long story short it turned out to the be actuator which had to be rebuild (as some parts have weak points by default). Worked fine after that.

    Do you want to hear the long story?
     
  5. Rinaldi

    Rinaldi Rookie

    Sep 18, 2019
    5
    Full Name:
    HENRIQUE RINALDI
    Su
    Sure!! Please
     
  6. Rinaldi

    Rinaldi Rookie

    Sep 18, 2019
    5
    Full Name:
    HENRIQUE RINALDI
    I thought that was it, but we already reinforced the cover with the same heat tape of the exhaust, in addition to the original protection and also isolated the exhaust. No change of symptoms
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  7. Rinaldi

    Rinaldi Rookie

    Sep 18, 2019
    5
    Full Name:
    HENRIQUE RINALDI
  8. danny_acs

    danny_acs Karting

    Aug 17, 2015
    94
    London, UK
    So the problem started occurring after the car had fully warmed up just like you (it was summer 2018). No issues while still cold. At first I “lost” fourth gear as the car would warm up – going up from third, it would try to go into 4th, would struggle for 2-3 seconds, and then it would go into 5th instead. After completely warming up, 6th gear would be impossible to shift into either. I took the car to a specialist and he started with the gear re-learning program. This worked and the car was fine for a day or two, and then the same issues started happening again.

    This time reverse disappeared too, and it wasn’t available even from “cold”. Re-learning failed at this point, and all other tests and assumptions pointed to the actuator. Took it off and sent to for refurbishment to SS AutoTech in the UK. When on the test rig, it did run to each limit, but not as strong as it could be. There was some leakage in the return pipe, which was a sign of wear in the hydraulic seals. For peace of mind they rebuilt the whole unit - The service included a complete strip down & clean, both internal & externally, using soda blast & ultrasonics. Re-newed all hydraulic seals and O-rings, including a redesigned & strengthened seal section. Re-newed all gaskets & fasteners. New stronger, re-engineered Selector Shaft & stronger modified shaft bearings, from aerospace grade materials. New set of copper hose seals. New stronger CNC machined aluminium end cap, replacing the old plastic one.

    Installed it back in the car and didn’t change any sensors. The gear re-learn worked on the second try after that, and gear changes were back to normal after that.
     
  9. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Oct 29, 2010
    11,009
    Wyoming
    How much did that cost? (sounds like something that many F1 owners may need to take advantage of eventually)
     
  10. danny_acs

    danny_acs Karting

    Aug 17, 2015
    94
    London, UK
    Rebuild was £1650 then, but slightly more this year.
    Diagnostics and problem identification were the usual hourly rate (2-3 hours) + about 4-5 hours taking off and reinstalling.
     
  11. SlowScud

    SlowScud Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 10, 2019
    71
    Texas
    Im not Ferrari mechanic by any stretch but from what I have learned a lot of F1 problems can be traced to an aging accumulator. Easy / cheap fix. Seems like these have a shelf life of ~10years so probably should be done anyway if you haven't recently.

    Hydraulic system needs that to work correctly so imagine there are lots of symptoms with that as root cause.
     
  12. rickm360

    rickm360 Rookie

    Mar 12, 2017
    4
    Calgary, Alberta and Phoenix, AZ
    Full Name:
    Rick Matthews
    Can you direct me to the applicable Table for the accumuator on either the 360 or F430? Thanks
     
  13. aslowdodge

    aslowdodge Karting

    Jun 5, 2004
    146
    Marietta, Georgia
    I have a few posts about shifting problems. I was told it was pump, then accumulator, eventually it was loose screws allowing air in systems on the f1 unit. Shifting errors only occurred when car was warmed up.
     
    Manda racing likes this.
  14. danny_acs

    danny_acs Karting

    Aug 17, 2015
    94
    London, UK
    £1650 for the actuator rebuild, plus about 5-6 hours of labour to diagnose the issue, remove and then refit + relearn...
     
  15. albkid

    albkid Karting

    Jul 1, 2016
    176
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Check Table 32 for the 360 on Ricambi's website. It is part number 35.
     

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