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Seeking your expertise on a 360 purchase - maybe THIS 360's purchase

Discussion in '360/430' started by ChimpanZed, Nov 22, 2020.

  1. ChimpanZed

    ChimpanZed Rookie

    Oct 11, 2015
    14
    Colorado
    Hey all, Aaron from Colorado here. I’m a life-long car nut looking for a new experience. I have started to seriously consider a Ferrari 360 as my next automotive purchase. I’ve owned a few performance cars recently, namely a 2006 Porsche Cayman S and a 2016 Shelby GT350R, but I recognize that a Ferrari 360 is a very different animal. I am looking for a lighter, more classic-ish driving experience than the GT350R offers, but not so classic that I’ll be dealing with significant reliability and maintenance issues. I loved the Cayman’s lithe, mid-engine “point and shoot” rotation, and the GT350R’s flat-plane crank V8 is special all of the time. In many ways, a 360 seems to strike a balance between the two. Relevant: I drove an F430 on the track about 6 years ago. It was sublime. I immediately drove a GT-R on the same circuit, and while MUCH faster, it drove like a dump truck and was simply not that fun. I’m looking to recreate that F430 experience but at a lower price point and with a manual, ideally.

    Factors that weigh on a 360 purchase:
    • I live less than a mile from Scuderia Ramparte in Erie, Colorado. This is also a major factor in considering a Ferrari. The simple fact that I have a neighbor that runs one hell of a Ferrari shop gives peace of mind. Well, as much as one can have with a 20-year-old Ferrari!
    • I will probably track the car in HPDE events a few times a year.
    • Complicating factor: I’m 6’4” and 225lbs with a 34” inseam. I tend to struggle more with headroom than legroom. Wearing a helmet on the track works in the GT350R only when I recline the seat a smidge.
    • I plan to budget $2K-$3K per year for annual maintenance, service, etc. and hoping to accrue unsused amounts for major service. I can afford more, but wondering if this is a reasonable amount to set aside.
    What I think I want. I’d love your feedback on this:
    • Modena - I like both Modenas and Spiders, but my wife much prefers the former. A Modena is going to be an easier sell to the Minister of Finance.
    • 6-speed manual - no surprise here. I want the classic feel and a gated shifter is that. For the right price, an F1 could be in the card as well. Best I can tell, manual cars are commanding a $10K premium (if not more in the seller’s mind). What is the oldest 360 that can be updated with the Challenge Transmission Control Unit software?
    • Silver or Red - I just think that lighter colors best accentuate the 360s lines, and red because red. Yellow is out because wife.
    • Sport seats - I realize that this is a pretty tough option to find, but the car below has them. I’ve read that the carbon buckets have less padding and suspension and thus I should sit lower in them. Until I sit in some it’s just a guess.
    This specific car has piqued my interest as it’s local to me, silver, manual, and has sport seats. It does seem expensive for the mileage, however. Based on all I’ve read and been told, these cars are more reliable when they’re driven, so the miles don’t bother me. In fact, I intend to drive the darn thing as often as I can so some low-mile creampuff that I feel obliged to treat too preciously is not what I want. I just want to pay an amount commensurate for the miles that the car has. I suppose that the price reflects the recent

    A few thought related to this car in particular and would love your input on what else I should be considering:
    • As a 2000 it has the pre-cats and needs a PPI to ensure all is well there, not to mention a full PPI because.
    • As a 2000 it came from the factory with the original variocam, engine mounts, etc. that were recalled and upgraded in later years. I’d need to confirm that this work has been done.
    • The CarFax some some service at Ferrari dealers, as well as service at non-Ferrari luxury dealers. I’d want to understand what was actually done and when.
    • Window tint is too damn dark. Easy fix.
    • Challenge grille is cool. How can I tell if this is a Ferrari OEM part?
    • Sports seats - Yay!
    • Tubi exhaust - I'm pretty indifferent on aftermarket exhaust o long as it's not an obnoxious drone on the highway.
    • Factory rollbar - interesting. Can the roller be used for shoulder harnesses?
    • The dash doesn’t look too bad. There’s some waviness, but no bubbles. I’d probably buy a sunscreen for outdoor parking but otherwise leave it be.
    • Tires are new Michel Pilot Super Sports. I assume that these are similar to the factory rubber? Are people putting PS4s or SC2s on these cars?
    • It looks like most of the switches and other soft-touch stuff are in decent shape. I have no issues with refinishing these parts as it seems like it'll be required eventually.
    • Note the discoloration on the rear grille below. Is this a common occurrence? I wonder if it’s just oily.
    • Note the chip (?) in the rear valence. I assume that these parts are plastic and that this is a relatively easy touch-up. I know it won’t be perfect, I just don’t like the exposed white.
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    What is up with the Celsius HVAC control? It seems that other American cars have a Farenheit scale. Is that correct? The VIN tells me this car was intended for the American market.

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    It looks like there might be paint protection film here, but the image isn't good enough to tell. Are these lines or creases around the headlights normal?

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    Any other thoughts you have are much appreciated! Thank you all.
     

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  3. Dewinator

    Dewinator F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 22, 2017
    3,013
    WA
    Even if a PPI shows the pre-cats still fine, based on age and mileage they're probably getting to the start of the window where they usually go based on what I've heard. So I'd be prepared at least to deal with them.

    On my search I specifically avoided anything with an aftermarket radio unit. I'm not against any mods, but putting in a cheap radio unit in a car where you listen to the engine, which also has a very sensitive electrical system, was a disqualifying red flag to me. What other changes might they have done which make zero sense?

    For a well-maintained car, I'd expect more than $10k premium for a manual. To the point where on cars.com the list price is the only reliable way to tell whether is a manual or not without looking at the pictures, being listed as a manual is not. Of course manuals that need a lot of love do move for similar prices to F1s.
     
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  4. Some Guy in the sky

    Sep 19, 2018
    144
    A VIN of ZFFYR51B000117571 shows that this is not a us market car (the B is the giveaway) , another give away is the roll bar, they were not available in the us market. Also the Carfax shows the car was imported.

    I don't want to be a downer but you should look into parts prices for oem, they are shooting up. Also the very unfortunate part is that if the variators have not been replaced you will basically have to do the 30k service again (I had to do this 2 years ago). The cams really need to come out so the valve covers need to come off and then the cams need to be timed. This is not a cheap service and from what I've seen can range from 5k to 15k (labor prices are all over the place). Next, Using my car (low mile 99) as an example I needed ball joints all around which Is probably going to be true for all 360' that have not had it done (>20 year old cars). That is another large chunk of change. Another horrific example is a friend of mine who needed both headers replaced in his 2001 (last month) due to bad cats and if he was to go oem the best price he could find was 15k for the both headers (he went aftermarket).
    I can also give you and idea about how you fit, I am 6'5 260 lbs with a 36 inseam. Head room is fine and leg room is fine. I don't think a helmet is going to happen but I have not tried it.

    These cars are getting old enough, and parts prices are shooting up so quickly that I think the budget of 2k-3k a year is out of date and going to need to be adjusted.
    I could be wrong and hopefully others chime in.

    With all that said, driving a 360 stick is pure magic every single time and I will never sell my car.
     
  5. DiabloTerr

    DiabloTerr Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 3, 2010
    347
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Terrance Findley
    Does the car have records? When I bought mine it came with records from it's inception, don't know if I would touch one without records unless the PPI was great. I drove 7 360's before buying the one I have, I recommend trying out a few cars so you have a baseline of how they feel. I found the sports seats uncomfortable for long drives, and I prefer the smell of Ferrari leather anyway. For a 20 years old car I would be searching for a solid Independent Shop, and I would get my hands on the 360 Owner's Manuel, lots of good information in that thick red book! I prefer silver, it really shows the lines, the amount of compliments I have received from my grigio titanio is borderline insane, people swear it's a brand new car and are shocked when I tell them it's a 2002.

    I would budget 5k a year and have at least 10k lying around from day 1. Nothing worst than having a Ferrari but being to scared to drive it because of fear of something breaking on it.
     
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  6. jdlegg

    jdlegg Karting

    Dec 22, 2009
    199
    Bryan
    Full Name:
    James Legg
    I owned a '00 360 coupe 6-speed manual for ~13.5 years. Put about 15K miles on it during that time (got too busy to put many miles on it in the last ~5 years of ownership). I tracked it fairly often as well. Only downside of that was brakes -- had to replace pads & rotors a couple of times after full-day of track events. Brake cooling is less than ideal if you want to hammer it for lap after lap.

    Being 6' 180lbs with 34" inseam I can say that interior was plenty roomy. It was a little tight with a helmet though.

    Things to look out for before purchasing:
    - maintenance records (more paperwork is obviously better)
    - regular fluid changes are a must
    - heat exchanger (transmission cooler) can be a weak point if coolant not changed regularly. Had one of these fail and the intermix of gearbox oil and coolant is an absolute nightmare to clean-up. It took ~15 coolant flushes to get rid of the floaters in the coolant system.

    Other than the above, 360's are pretty solid cars. Good luck with the search.
     
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  8. Jb-Slow

    Jb-Slow Karting

    May 11, 2020
    67
    I would find it hard to believe that in the last 20 years the recalls haven't been addressed. I would still prefer to have the service history though. As far as the headers go just replace them, most are reasonably priced (for ferrari) and available from lots of sellers. They're not worth the risk trying to make them last. My main thing would be the timing belts age, but most work can be done on your own if you know how to turn a wrench.
     
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  9. timwu12

    timwu12 Formula Junior

    Oct 31, 2014
    696
    Houston, TX
    Just as another user wrote, this car with the factory roll bar is not a US car. Temp being in Celsius is also another confirmation.

    As for the seats, I had the standard electric seats and then swapped in the sport seats. The sport seats do in fact sit lower than the electric standard seats. However, at 6’, 190lb, 32” inseam, I cannot sit with a helmet facing forward dead center. The headliner cushion over the driver door pushes my head over so I have to kink my head a few degrees to the right. It’s a bit frustrating, especially when trying to look left, but what can you do!

    One thing to note, that silver car has mismatched rotors. Looks 2 piece ******** up front and stock 1 piece in the rear.

    Also, if you track your car and have a shop work on and maintain your car, $2-3k/year is not going to cut it. You’ll spend that much on consumables alone.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  10. ChimpanZed

    ChimpanZed Rookie

    Oct 11, 2015
    14
    Colorado
    You are all fantastic. Thank you so much for the comments here and the private messages as well. I’ve got some additional details on the car from the seller. He stated the following with the qualifier that he wasn’t certain about some of the non-US market stuff.
    • It was purchased in Germany and then sent to the US almost immediately. Apparently the first owner had multiple residences around the world which is how I presume he skirted the 25 year import rule. Must be nice!
    • The 2000 German-market cars don’t have the pre-cats that the 2000+ US cars do.
    • He believes that some of the Challenge suspension parts came on the German-market models. Can anyone confirm?
    • There are records for:
      • 30K service
      • A recent Ferrari dealer’s work on the suspension. The car was apparently sold and shipped to Oregon, then “returned” to the dealer in Colorado after the buyer’s wife wasn’t happy with her husband.
      • That’s it - no other service records
     
  11. AEROBUFF

    AEROBUFF Rookie

    Apr 1, 2019
    10
    You aren't the first person to ask about this car. Seems like the main issue with Euro cars to difficultly registering them in CA because of emissions. Are you planning to register it in an area that requires emissions in Colorado? I have heard that cars without pre cats often struggle to pass on the rollers. I know that Scuderia Ramparte has some tricks to get them to pass. However, you can still fail a visual inspection. The emissions test center could require it to have pre cats since a USDM 2000 would have them. You might want to see if 2000 Euro spec car is Colorado emissions compliant.

    Here's the old thread: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/thoughts-on-this-360.617698/

    I own an 01 Silver Modena 6sp in Denver. It has the electric Daytona style seats. If these vaccines work and Denver lifts the restrictions, I'd be happy to let you sit in it to see how you fit.
     
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  13. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2012
    1,325
    Calif
    Full Name:
    Brett
    I don't think a smog center would pick up the "no precat thing". Here in central cal, mine are missing and no issues. Most smog guys don't have the expertise to catch that and I am not sure how they could? No o2 sensors at the front of the cat?
     
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  14. AEROBUFF

    AEROBUFF Rookie

    Apr 1, 2019
    10
    Agree that the average emissions employee is not going to have any idea for identifying the pre cats. However, they do have to enter in the VIN into the system, and that could trigger them to do a more thorough check. Before I spent $100k on a car I would want to make sure that I was not going to have issues registering it.
     
  15. Extreme1

    Extreme1 Formula Junior

    Jun 27, 2017
    492
    Santa Clarita, CA
    One way you could save the $2000-$3000 a year on the service is by doing it yourself. See if your neighbor that owns the shop will let you come help on your car the first time. That way you’ll know how to do it the next time. The oil and filter is available on Amazon or EBay. Same with the gearbox oil. There’s You Tube videos on how to do most maintenance.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  16. VAF84

    VAF84 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    As someone who also owned a 2006 Porsche Cayman S manual (such a fun car), and enjoys driving manual transmission cars, I would still just go with the F430. I just can't picture paying the equivalent price of an F430 on a 360. The F1 system is a blast to drive because it still feels like a manual. That may seem like a negative to some, but personally I like the fact that it at least feels like a manual. Trust me, it's not like a lot of other paddle shifting cars. You'll probably pay less in maintenance (or probably similar), and I'd say the newer model will be slightly more reliable. For $97k you should have some decent options on an F430. Personally, I began my search for a 360, but with patience got a good deal and purchased the F430.

    I probably would have agreed with you here, until I purchased my Ferrari. The factory head unit is absolutely useless. I couldn't even figure out how to operate it. When I sell it, I'll keep it with the car because we all like the warm and fuzzy's of buying things stock, but it really needs to go straight to the landfill. I added a relatively inexpensive head unit to be able to make calls on Bluetooth, which I sorely missed on my 1,000 mile drive home from where I bought it, as well as for general functionality improvements. I wouldn't let an aftermarket radio dissuade the OP.
     
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  17. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2012
    1,325
    Calif
    Full Name:
    Brett
    agreed but my home is in the central valley calif, the worst for smog requirements and entering the vin# does not cause any issues. On my car the precats are cutout and welded back shut. Not sure what would happen if you have after market headers though.
     
  18. AEROBUFF

    AEROBUFF Rookie

    Apr 1, 2019
    10
    @BrettC Do you have a Euro spec 360? Since you had the pre cats cut out does that mean that you have a US car? How does running the VIN of a US car in California mean that a Euro VIN is going to pass in Colorado? If your car is a Euro car that had pre cats that would mean that it was made EPA compliant at some point, so it probably has a sticker saying that it meets CARB regulations. It would be very difficult for emissions to spot that your cats were cut out without climbing under the car and looking for the welds. Nothing in the ad or pictures states that this car was made EPA legal in the US. Therefore, I recommend checking with the State of Colorado before buying it. It could be a grey market car and those are very difficult to register outside of Florida.
     
  19. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2012
    1,325
    Calif
    Full Name:
    Brett
    nope, usa car.
     
  20. C4YES

    C4YES Formula Junior

    Apr 7, 2008
    887
    Orange County, CA
    Full Name:
    Todd
    Do you truly like the 360 in silver?
     
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  21. armedferret

    armedferret Formula Junior

    Mar 24, 2018
    435
    Full Name:
    Mark
    a resale-red gated sunroof car (CONSIDERABLY more rare than the linked vehicle) with similar mileage was listed at 89 and change on autotrader in NC; it's gone now so i can only assume it sold. given the asking price nearly 10k less, one would think they're asking a lot more than should be asked for a car with the given specs.
     
  22. ChimpanZed

    ChimpanZed Rookie

    Oct 11, 2015
    14
    Colorado
    Thanks for finding that old thread. This car isn’t the one for me based on what I’ve learned here. Between the non-US origin, lack of service documentation, the “return” from it’s most recent buyer, etc., I think I’ll keep looking.

    I would love to take you up on sitting in yours once it’s safe to do so. Many thanks for the offer!
     
  23. ChimpanZed

    ChimpanZed Rookie

    Oct 11, 2015
    14
    Colorado
    Interesting thought. I’m a decent wrench and work on my other cars, but none have near the pedigree of a Ferrari.
     
  24. ChimpanZed

    ChimpanZed Rookie

    Oct 11, 2015
    14
    Colorado
    I do. I heard the anecdote that silver is the second least popular 360 color. Is that right?
     
  25. AandSC

    AandSC Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 12, 2016
    215
    Jax, FL
    Full Name:
    Allen
  26. 550nitis

    550nitis Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 3, 2016
    412
    Los Angeles, CA
    If you like this car go for it! Seems you have some doubts on the car though hence the reason for your post. Personally I would pass on this and get the car you really want. $97k for a euro seems way to high. The seats are easy to swap by the way if you really need to. You will love the 360! $3k a year is plenty. Good luck!
     
  27. Extreme1

    Extreme1 Formula Junior

    Jun 27, 2017
    492
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Its just a car. It has engine oil, drain plugs, filters, spark plugs etc. Don't be intimidated by it, just be careful and take your time.
     
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  28. KERO

    KERO Rookie

    Jan 16, 2020
    7
    Jacksonville
    Full Name:
    Kerem Caliskan
    I am also seriously considering this car. I just talked to dealer today. As you didn’t buy it till now just want to ask if you found something wrong with the car?

    Thanks

     

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