Should I bail? PPI on '95 355 suggests valve job in 5-10k

not if it's priced accordingly or unless you do not want to have to deal with the repairs...........

i'd say wait for a 360. the 430 is coming and i think it's a much better car.

 

I agree the 360 is a much better car than the 355, but if you like the car you have now then enjoy it. If the price isn't justifiable then maybe bail, or like henry said if you just dont want to have to deal with repairs. And when the F430 comes out the 360 prices will really drop. Something to think about.

-Doug

 

Don't hold your breath for a huge drop in 360 prices. The Dollar is dropping against the Euro almost daily. I wouldn't be surprised if it reaches $1.50 by the time the 430 finally arrives. If that happens, look for $200K MSRP for a bare bones 6-speed 430, 225 + tax and tip for a reasonably optioned F1. Lots of 430 aspirants will think twice before getting out of their not-that-bad-after-all 360s! If that comes to pass, 360 prices will remain high.

Your PPI is an excellent bargaining tool -- you can use it to hammer the seller on price. Assuming you actually get the stuff taken care of, you'll end up with a known good starting point for your period of ownership.

Have fun with it!

 

Dude, I am half in the bag yet let me tell you...If you want a friggin cool car get a no story 355 spider...there's always going to be a faster car no matter what you buy...if you want a classic, timeless, quick and nibble car...you will LOVE the 355...awesome lines...I watched my wife let it rip last week while following her and it was as much of a rush as driving it...the look, the sound, the mystiche (sp)...AWESOME!

Sorry, 360's are very cool but don't get me fired up

 

Okay...I've got your thoughts. I just brought my 355 home last week after months of searching and a few cars bombing out of PPI. I'll say it right now: drop me an email and I'll abuse my unlimited long-distance and get ya straight. BUT for all those interested:

I'll do this in 2 post, one on your situation with the 355, the other the 360.

I had 2 cars that seemed awesome..but failed in the leak-down. It comes down to exactly this: either they get it fixed OR you buy it cheap enough to cover the cost of getting it fixed yourself OR you pass on it altogether.

All cars have their issues. The meat & potatoe issues with the 355 are the exhaust manifolds and the valve issue. The manifolds will eventually crack, the engine doesn't have to come out when fix-it time comes. Any 355 you buy should have had the manifolds changed already...if not, it's a $2k strike against it.

The valves. Damn those valves. Research indicates that some early model '95's had issues and again a spat of lemons in some '97 and even early '98. So here's the thing: people make a huge issue about the valves. Research indicates that the issue is WAY overblown and not something to worry about. Yet, I ran into it all over the place. What are ya gonna do???

Here's the bottom line: if the leak-down is clean, just buy it and cross your fingers. If it gets ya, the fix is $8k and lends oppotunity to do some trick valve work & do another 30k-service when the engine is out. If you can't blow $8k and figure it's like an expensive parking ticket...then don't buy a Ferrari, cause costly repairs can be part of the fun.

If the leakdown is not clean...hand the seller a box of tissues and rain on his F-in parade. I'm so sick of sellers boasting their awesome ride that turns lemon when it hits PPI. If the leakdown goes ugly you have 3 options:

1) pass on it...there's many to choose from...
2) offer to only buy it once repaired AND WITHOUT A PRICE INCREASE
3) discount the price $8k - $10k and buy it unrepaired

One f-chatter bought his unrepaired and told him, in hindsight, he'd not do it again: the hassle & cost wasn't worth it. Yes, it's done right now...but what a pain to get it there.

The right car is out there for ya, just be patient and you'll know when the right deal comes along. Might be an idea to find a newer model too....

 

The 360...

Will cost about twice what the 355 will cost. That's a HUGE jump. The 355 may have a bit of depreciation left in it...but considering the cost of the older models, it can't go down too much more. Value is solid. The 360 will continue to drop. In a few years the 430 converitble will make it disco.

Many will tell you how the 355 is more "fun" to drive, is more of a raw sports-car, is the last of the true hand-built Ferrari's and nobody knocks the looks. It's an awesome entry-level Ferrari and a great place to start.

I'd suggest a 6-speed. I love the shifting & drama. Not a shift goes by where I'm not happy I chose the stick over the F1.

I happen to know of a '97 black/black spider, 14k miles, 30k-service done, everything tight & right....for about $89k or maybe a bit less. Let me know.

 

The PPI turned out to be money well spent, didn't it! Best move on, IMO...

 

This is what I don't get. What's with all the F355's out there that have all the proper maintenence done and have been taken care of, but fail the compression and/or the leakdown test? F355's aren't that old, why aren't they holding up better? Abuse? Improper break-in?

Also, what specifically is the problem with the valves?

 

Run a search on the site for "355 valve guides"...you will find all the information you need.

 

Can anyone comment on the "5%" threshold for the leakdown numbers? I remember from previous threads, that 15% was considered the point to consider excessive. Regardless, I think you chose wisely in this instance.

 

Following leakdown data is from autosite.com, probably indicative of a normal street motor but still a good reference starting point.

"An engine in great condition should generally show only 5 to 10% leakage. An engine that's still in pretty good condition may show up to 20% leakage. But more than 30% leakage indicates trouble".

 

I always thought one of the major issues was the difference between cylinders. I know in aviation 5-10% is acceptable, beyond that means new top end.

 

I was told by a very accomplished mechanic and engineer that 10% or less leakage is what you want. The threshold in a leak-down test is not 5%; it's 10%. Above 10% is... bad

About whether you should buy this particular F355: I'd say talk to your mechanic and see what he says about fixing those cylinders and doing the valve guide service. If it's possible to get those cylinders back into perfect working order, then see if you can knock about 10K off the asking price and buy the car as it is.

As Steve R said, these freaking sellers all think their cars are perfect. HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN AN AD FOR A FERRARI THAT DIDN'T SAY "EXCELLENT EXAMPLE" OR "SUPERB CONDITION" OR "IMMACULATE" OR "FLAWLESS" OR "PERFECT CONDITION" ETCETERA! EVERY FERRARI IN THE UNIVERSE IS IN "PERFECT CONDITION"??!!

Yes, I am ANGRY! These sellers who have cars that fail to meet the PPI test deserve to get beaten over the head by buyers. They have to know that they are just not going to get anything near their asking prices for cars that have engine problems! We're not talking about a scratch or a scuff on the leather, folks. We are talking about MAJOR mechanical problems. I'll be damned if I ever pay a Ferrari seller his already-overpriced asking price when it turns out that the engine is going out the door!

Beware, would-be sellers of so-called "perfect" F355s!

Merry Christmas!

 

I agree with you 348SStb (dude....get a name!!)

The sellerof the car I last PPI'd was actually arrogant about how "perfect" his car was, and he had his head stuck in the 355 pricing that existed about 1 year ago: demanded $100k for his '97 with 14k miles and was color blue!

I could actually hear his heart skip a beat when he called me and enthusiastically asked if I'd heard from the mechanic. I told him it's a "pass". He almost fainted. He apologized for wasting my time...but I probably should have asked him to pay for at least 1/2 the cost of the PPI due to mis-representation. That's what it is: he says his car is one thing and instead it's another.

Just FYI, he's trying to get the dealership who sold him the car a couple years ago to cover it. Falls between wishful thinking & being delusional. Like that's really going to happen.

ANYWAYS.....as to the query of why these cars are having these issues. I don't know if this theory holds true, but: the exhaust manifolds uptil mid '98 are all prone to cracking. Think of it as a defective part. The mechanic explained that driving these cars with cracked manifolds is what causes the valve damage and carbonization on the cylinder walls that leads to the low numbers we see in leak-down test.

My car, with only 3,000 miles, had the manifolds changed-out when the dealership did the 30k-service. I was surprised Ferrari replaced 2 non-cracked units....but apparently the defect is well known enough that the dealership could do it while the engine was out. It was the head mechanic who explained that the bad manifolds, when cracked and before detected, cause the valve problem. By this theory I should be free of such issues...but my hunch is that in the years to follow I'll be hit with it anyways. Cost of owning an exotic. Not like this is an investment. And btw, the 360's are having their costly issues to: no escaping it.

 

I started another thread in the general dsicussion area about this. There seems to be a lot of conflicting info on leakdown numbers, and I think a lot of this has to do with how the test is performed...

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43173

 

Guys. are any other ferrari's prone to particularily bad leak down tests besides 355's? A couple of local mechanics told me that they don't even recommend a leakdown unless its a 355, or another ferrari with very high miles.

I was told that 308/348/testarossa motors are pretty much bulletproof, and wear great....

 

Here is a picture of a cross section of a 355 head taken from the service manuel.

By looking at this picture..how would it be possiable to dectect a valve guide problem..when a CYLINDER leakdown test must be performed with the all the valves closed?
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

You are correct, but you cannot count on either test showing bad guides. I don't advocate doing either test as a substitute for the other. Frankly the guides by themselves I don't worry about too much, if the guides themselves are that bad the valves themselves will not last all that long and the problem will make itself known. I have found that the burned oil residue on the plugs is as good an indicator as anything else for determining the condition of the guides. You are correct that higher than 10% leakage will generally be in addition to other symptoms but there many possible causes for those symptoms (manifold going south, engine air flow balance in need of adjustment, plugs or wires gone south etc.) that are common to the 355 so you need to test it.

 

For quite a while, (308 QV TO END 348/TR) I almost never took comp/leak down tests. And when we did it was usually to quantify what we already knew. Early motors we did it once in a while but usually just at PPI's. A compression problem on the early cars almost always manifested itself first in other ways, usually excessive oil smoke. That is usually what dictated when the motor came apart. Modern cats burn the oil so well you usually don't see much smoke from new cars and besides with modern combustion temps we see more burned valves and prematurely worn cyl/piston/rings than we have for decades.