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Silicone hoses for cooling system?

Discussion in '308/328' started by Birdman, Jun 14, 2007.

  1. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
    North shore, MA
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    THE Birdman
    I am compiling a list of all the materials I used and part numbers for those of you who want to undertake this project. I also e-mailed Chris a list of the hose specs for the Mondial last night and he is going to come up with a price to create a ready-made kit for the car.

    Should the kit come with the hose clamps?

    The "constant torque" hose clamps I bought for use with the silicone hose are expensive. I paid $5 EACH for those clamps! There are 22 clamps on a Mondial! If you use regular rubber hose, you can use a regular stainless worm drive hose clamp (good enough for Ferrari OEM, lasted 24 years, probably good enough for me). However it is recommended that with silicone hose you need a clamp that does not shred the hose. The constant torque hose clamps I used have an extra layer of metal that prevents the drive slots from touching the hose. Chris is going to get a price on a bulk lot of high quality hose clamps and we can probably get the price down quite a bit. It is my belief that most people would prefer a full-blown kit. Order it and all the hose and clamps come in a box.

    Thoughts?

    Birdman
     
  2. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
    North shore, MA
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    THE Birdman
    So here's my update...

    The car is back together, the new radiator is in, I have filled the car with coolant to the extent that I could (I didn't have enough....gotta run out and get some more today) and so far everything looks good.

    My total is about $600 in parts (that includes $350 to have the radiator re-cored) and 12 hours time to do the whole thing (I spread it over several evenings). Keep in mind that I have a lift and that speeds things up. On the other hand, I work slow, take my time and play air guitar occasionally when I work, so this cuts into the process!

    I guess I'll be working on developing the 308 kit now...since that car is now busted too! I finished the Mondial in the nick of time!

    Birdman
     
  3. Hans

    Hans F1 Veteran

    Feb 17, 2006
    7,723
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    Get the one-ear clamps from Oetiker (www.oetiker.com). They are for one-time use, but only cost around $.40 each, are of constant-pressure type and seem to hold up pretty well (in my plane).

    Hans
     
  4. rtking

    rtking Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2006
    703
    Huntington Beach, CA
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    Bob King
    Speaking for myself, I would prefer to have a "complete kit" including clamps. That saves me from having to find my own, and I'll have the peace of mind knowing that all the clamps and hoses have been replaced and should not be an issue. $5 is kind-of spendy per clamp though. If Hans' suggestion pans-out, $0.40 is much preferable to $5.

    Bob
     
  5. NC Mondial

    NC Mondial Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 6, 2004
    274
    Raleigh, NC
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    Paul Stahl
    10 minutes ago I had one of the long hoses blow out on my '82 Mondial at the front connector. Thankfully I was only .1 mile from home.

    Paul
     
  6. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
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    Wow...'tis the summer for coolant hoses to blow!!

    How much is the crimp tool for the one-time use clamps and where can you get the in the USA?

    Birdman
     
  7. lusso64

    lusso64 Formula 3

    Apr 12, 2004
    1,535
    Simi Valley
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    David
    And therein lies the problem.... For a shop or very keen DIY'er, the one-time use clamps are the way to go, but for someone just doing one car, then it would work out about the same price I'm sure. There is probably a cheaper clamp that is appropriate for use on silicone hoses too.

    I think a complete kit is the way to go. If someone is not keen to cut up their own hoses, they probably wouldn't be keen on sourcing all the clamps.

    I'll get a Mondial t list together and post it here in the next few weeks. One thing we need to do is be very specific about which year model car we use for each "prototype" kit, as there seem to be a multitude of minor variations.

    Dave
     
  8. grub

    grub Karting

    Jun 19, 2006
    101
    Sydney OZ
    Full Name:
    Grant
    You can put us down for a kit! For a 308gt4. I think the kit with clamps is the way to go. Completes the package. I wouldn't mind cutting the hoses myself incase lengths were slightly different (doubt it but...).

    Seems to be good timing for this kit as I seem to be losing coolant somewhere... Gives us something to do this weekend!
     
  9. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
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    I should have a price from Chris shortly....
     
  10. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
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    Paul
    On a early 308, the large hose is only for connecting pipes. Three feet or so should be sufficient, plus an elbow at the radiator. Then there are the small heater hoses, the long line running back around the fuel tank, the feed line off the main coolant tube, and the feed and return lines to the reservoir. I found the following length chart someone made up a while back. No guarantees of accuracy, I havnt checked it, some seems rather long.

    Coolant drivers side heat exchanger inside to T 1/2" 16”
    Coolant heat control valve to T 5/8” 6.5”
    Coolant pass side heat exchanger inside to T 1/2" 36”
    Coolant engine to heater switch 5/8” 131”
    Coolant pass side heat exchanger outside to return T 1/2“ 29”
    Coolant driver side outside heat exchanger to return T 1/2“ 27”
    Coolant return T to large line to radiator 5/8” 72”
    Coolant expansion tank to water pump 3/4" 20”
    Coolant expansion tank to water pump 3/8” 20”
    Coolant 1.5 couplers on hard lines/water pump/ etc. 1 1/2" 3-5”x 9 pieces
    Coolant 1.5 90 degree bend on radiator drivers side top 1 1/2"

    3/8" = 20"
    1/2" = 108"
    5/8" = 209"
    3/4" = 20"
    1 1/2" = 27-45"
     
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  11. Hans

    Hans F1 Veteran

    Feb 17, 2006
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    Oh, not much. $30 or so. Really, they are nothing more than a pair of pliers! (Thinking of that, the $30 all of a sudden IS a lot - I guess next time I'd buy some pliers)

    Oetiker has an office in the US:

    http://www.oetiker.com/usa/start_unternehmen_e.htm

    Hans
     
  12. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
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    North shore, MA
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    Well, I'm happy to report that the Mondial is all back together, no leaks, and runs great. The re-cored radiator is all clean inside and flowing nicely. I like the 160 degree thermostat for sure....it kicks water out to the radiator eariler and helps keep the engine running a little cooler. A 190 degree thermo doesn't even send water to the radiator until the needle is halfway, which means that in traffic, you are going to run hotter than 195, even if your radiator is perfect. The 160 thermo might end up with the engine running a little cooler than it is designed for in cold weather, but honestly, how much do we drive these cars in the cold? Not much.

    I guess with my new radiator and new hoses, I'm good in the cooling department for another 20 years (well, probably not....the seal in the water pump will start leaking next spring! ;))

    And now.....I will start on the 308!

    Birdman
     
  13. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
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    chris morse
    Birdman,

    You are a lucky.. Guy, owning two F Cars. How good can it get??? I see quite a few of my felow Pacific Region members with more than one stallion.

    But how many of them really work on them???

    Bona fortuna,
    chris
     
  14. docmirror

    docmirror Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    772
    Ft Worth TX
    Please put me on the list for a Mondial kit, not including clamps. Kudo's to both Birdman and Chris for helping out owners of the vintage cars.

    I've been under the Mondial doing the long hose. Here's a few hints. Get vaseline or KY jelly. Cut the hose at both ends, just where it comes out of the channel. Remove the clamps, and cut off the small sections. Smear the lube on the old hose at the back. Use two vise grips, and clamp them to the front of the long end. Now brace yourself, and start pulling while someone pushes from the back.

    Once you've got the old hose out, clean out the gunk from the channel with a water hose. Now, lube the new hose with the jelly, and start grunting it through from the front. Leave a few sections without jelly to grasp along the way. I used a slight spiral motion to work it in.

    Slide the ends on the tube section at back. slide it an extra few inches to measure the front. Cut as needed, then slide it forward over the tube. Attach clamps and test with water first before using coolant.
     
  15. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
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    I do not know if vaseline (a petroleum product) should be used on hoses. Maybe it's fine, just not sure. But you can use silicone spray (available at any hardware store) easily and it's perfectly fine for rubber or silicone hose. I used the spray to lube the hoses to get them into the car, and I also use it inside the mouths of the hoses to get them to slip right on the tubes.

    Still no word from Chris on prices. Yo Chris, what's up?

    Birdman
     
  16. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
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    Russ Turner
    as before, I'm in for a Mondial 3.2 kit!
     
  17. docmirror

    docmirror Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    772
    Ft Worth TX
    Bird, I thought of that, and the one I did was a Gates green stripe. I asked the guy at Gates when I ordered the 6 foot section and he said 'no prob' they are inpervious to petroleum oils, fuels, and a bunch of other things. Acid is bad, and KY jelly is quite - well, gentle.
     
  18. NC Mondial

    NC Mondial Formula Junior
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    Sep 6, 2004
    274
    Raleigh, NC
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    Paul Stahl
    Had you not started this thread I am SURE my hose would not have blown.

    Anyway, I spent the better part of yesterday attempting to get the two long hoses out of my Mondial. (Birdman, you are right, a lift makes this job MUCH easier, I REALLY wish I had one). The lower one was not too much trouble, it had been replaced by the PO not tooooo long ago. The upper long hose (the one that blew) is another beast altogether. It appears to be the original and looks every bit as bad as the picture of Birdman’s. With time the hose has swollen and become VERY fragile, hence my problem. When I grab what little bit of hose I can get a hold of to pull it out the hose just crumbles. Any ideas on how to get that sucker out when pulling on the hose is simply not an option??

    Paul

    PS: Any word on The Kit?
     
  19. rtking

    rtking Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2006
    703
    Huntington Beach, CA
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    Bob King
    OK - I want to keep this thread alive - especially since I've just received a quote to replace the hoses on my Mondial and it's quite a bit of money - enough to make me cough and stumble. Any word on estimated release date?

    Thanks again to Birdman for doing the legwork in putting this all together!

    Bob
     
  20. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
    San Antonio
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    Russ Turner
    I've commited to replacing my tunnel hoses in the next couple of weeks with the silcone hoses while the engine is out. If no kit available yet, will go through the stated sources and take a few photos.
    All advice welcome!

    Many thanks to all!
     
  21. Pizzaman Chris

    Pizzaman Chris F1 Rookie

    Mar 13, 2005
    3,885
    New Hampshire
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    Chris "Pizzaman"
    Hey guys,

    I figured i let you know that Birdman is on "shark assignment" til July 16.
     
  22. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
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    Hey Gentlemen,
    The shark assignment got cancelled. I am still here. I heard from Chris in VT about a week ago that he had ordered some samples for the kit and was getting a price. I have NO idea how long it's going to take to develop the kit and if you need something ASAP I will go and pull my receipt from McMaster Carr for the blue silicone hose I used for the long pieces.

    I used regular rubber for the short sections that you can see from the outside world (i.e. under the plenum, etc.). The blue silicone was too flashy for me, even though it matches the car.

    The stuff I bought for the short sections was heavy-duty 1-1/2" ID rubber hose that looks exactly like OEM. It is part number 609 and I got it at Napa. (It is just Gates branded NAPA.) A 3' piece is as long as they have it, but that is enough for all the short sections in the car. The car has 8 short sections (ranging from 3" to 5" long), 2 long sections (61" in my car) and one 90 degree bend. I took the 90 degree bend one down to Napa and said "gimme one like this". They rummaged around and found something close, which I cut down to the right length. I will gather part numbers and post. I used regular hose clamps on the rubber hose (good enough for Ferrari, good enough for me) and fancy expensive ($5 EACH) "constant torque" on the silicone so they wouldn't cut into it. I also got those at Napa. Basically, everything you need can be sourced at NAPA except for the silicone hose.

    Except for the 2 hoses under the plenum, I found this to be a fairly simple job on a lift.

    As for getting the two hoses out of the tunnels, I just grabbed them with a big pair of pliers and yanked them out. They were tight, but the hose held together enough to come loose. Putting the new silicone hoses in was easy because they are slightly smaller in OD than the OEM hoses so they go in easily, especially with a little silicone spray lube.

    Birdman
     
  23. rtking

    rtking Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2006
    703
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Bob King
    Birdman,

    I would greatly appreciate any info on the silicone hoses from McMaster Carr. Thanks for the heads-up about the pieces from NAPA. My hoses are 24 years old and I understand that I'm probably going to want to change those ASAP as they're not likely to last very long. (Some are starting to swell.)

    Bob
     
  24. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
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    chris morse
    Here is a question for the pros, or guys that have been in there and done this,

    As long as the cooling system is drained and you "are in there doing" this stuff, What else makes sense.

    Thermostat and gasket?

    Coolant temp sensor?

    Radiator sealing foam?

    Brake booster hose?

    Radiator fan switch.

    Some of these hoses are fairly well burried, so, it seems to me that the constant pressure clamps are cheap insurance.

    If you are going to pull the drivers side fuel tank for access to the heater hose, why not replace the fuel hoses as well?? See what I mean??

    Looking for a better way,
    chris
     
  25. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
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    Chris, hell yeah. Easy.

    No, if it's working, there is nothing wrong with it!

    You can do that anytime, it's right under the hood, but yes, I did it.

    No...different system! Didn't do it. You would have to drop a tank for it.

    Again, if it ain't broke, I don't see why you need to replace it, but the VW replacement is only $30 if you want to.

    Heater hoses in the Mondial are much trickier than the 308. In the 308 they just go through the side of the car to the front where they are reasonably accessible. In the Mondial they vanish into the car and come out somewhere under the dash. Replacing them looks like a major undertaking involving drilling all the rivets out of the skin under the car, etc. I didn't do mine. I probably will have to at some point, but right now they are OK. My philosophy is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Obviously sometimes you are better off to fix stuff that looks like it may need to be repaired soon while you are in there, but that has to be weighed against time and effort. If you don't use some kind of prudence, you will start out to replace some coolant lines and end up rebuilding the whole car. I try to draw the line someplace....not too lazy and not too much overboard.

    Fuel hose I did. Well, the one from the tank to the fuel pump. The one that connects the two tanks, I can't find, but still looking. The rest of them are high pressure injection hoses and a different animal.

    Birdman
     

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