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Silicone hoses for cooling system?

Discussion in '308/328' started by Birdman, Jun 14, 2007.

  1. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    OK, some part numbers:

    From NAPA:
    • Constant torque hose clamp, p/n: 705-1504 - $5.00 each (for silicone hose)
    • Standard hose clamp, p/n 705-1204 - $.59 each (fine for rubber and 1/10 the cost)
    • Hose cutter. p/n 3550 - $24. Trust me, you want one.
    • 1-1/2" ID rubber coolant hose p/n 609 - $9/foot, get a full 3' section


    From McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com)
    • High-temp/high pressure Silicone coolant hose, 1-1/2" ID, 125 psi, Blue. P/N 5296K67 - $9.75/foot, get 11 feet for a Mondial (each piece is just a tad over 5 feet).

    That's it!

    Birdman
     
  2. gearheadken

    gearheadken Rookie

    Aug 12, 2006
    12
    I did hoses on my '78 308GTS in all silicone a short while ago. Silicone Federal Hose in 1-5/8" diameter is available from Royal Brass & Hose(www.royalbrassandhose.com). It doesn't show in their online catalog but they have it in any size all the way down to the 3/8" needed for the engine to head tank vent line. Just call them to order.

    The 1-5/8" doesn't require a huge amount of force to get it into place on fittings.

    They also stock a full line of constant torque clamps at prices slightly below NAPA at retail and better for those with a wholesale account.

    My supplier advise use of antifreeze or soap as a lube. They said to avoid lubing with any oil based lubricant.

    There is no question in my mind that Ferrari would have used this hose had it been available when the car was built.
     
  3. rtking

    rtking Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2006
    703
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Bob King
    Birdman - Thank you for the awesome information! May I ask how many of each type of clamp you needed or ordered? I will be placing my order tomorrow since this is a service I will want to do.

    Gearheadken - thank you for your supplier's information as well! Did you order 3 feet of the 1 5/8" I.D. hose like Birdman?

    I just love this forum! Thanks for all the information! FWIW, the price I was quoted for the two-5-foot sections of factory replacement hose was just under $1000!!! I think the silicone hoses are a more elegant solution that will last much longer.

    Thanks again!

    Bob
     
  4. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    Ken, I considered the 1-5/8" hose but when I measured with a caliper, I was afraid it might be just a tad too large and wouldn't seal. Sounds like it does seal ok then. Might be worth using 1-5/8" in the future because the silicone hose is tough to get onto the pipes. You would think it would be easier because it is so flexible, but not really. The problem is that it is very "sticky" and doesn't like to slide onto the aluminum pipes like rubber does. Add to that the flexibility and it likes to collapse when you push on it, so I found that lubing it well was the only way to get it on there. The rubber stuff is much much easier to install. Do they have it in black? McMaster has it in 1-5/8" too, but they only carry blue. I didn't want to put the blue stuff on the car in places where it can bee seen. Too bling for me!

    Bob, you will need 22 clamps in total if you replace all 8 short pieces, the two long pieces and the 90 degree bend at the radiator. If you use silicone for the whole car, all 22 should be constant torque. If you just use the silicone for the long sections under the car, you just need 4 of the constant torque and the rest can be standard stainless clamps.

    I also looked up the price of the OEM long hose pieces on Ferrari UK's site and was stunned when I saw that they wanted hundreds of dollars for EACH one!

    Birdman
     
  5. gearheadken

    gearheadken Rookie

    Aug 12, 2006
    12
    Birdman, No black available from this supplier. Just an aside, the silicone hose lining hose is prone to tearing if stretched too much. You are right about the sticky factor. The 1-5/8" is a perfect fit and still requires a fair amount of muscle. I can't imagine fighting 1-1/2" into place.

    This is one of those mod's I like. I drive my car alot. This adds to the reliability and is completely reversible if restoration to original is desired.

    BTW, I'm currently doing an Electromotive install on the car using the 100% reversible approach. This includes no hole drilling or cutting of original wiring harnesses. I have been inspired by your write ups.
     
  6. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    Hi Bird,

    How are things going with a 308 kit?? Blue is way flashy, but if that is what it takes to get a bullet proof hose set up for the 308, I will do it.

    Others may go a different way, but i want to go max reliable, (blue, if necesary) and cough up for the constant torque clamps, (wheeze---$5 each really??).

    All of this can be redone in black rubber if the next owner wishes, but i want to do it once and move on to other maintenance/performance issues.

    Man, I love driving this car WISH THERE WERE NO SPEED LIMITS :)

    Optimistically, I remain,
    chris
     
  7. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
    North shore, MA
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    THE Birdman
    Chris,
    I haven't heard from Chris in VT in ages, and so I have assumed that the whole deal he was working on kinda fizzled. That's why I gave part numbers in a previous post.

    You can do the whole car in silicone hose if you want. You can get the blue stuff in looooong lengths from McMaster Carr to do the front to backs. Shorter lengths are available anywhere (Summit). "Gearhead" chimed in on the previous page that the 1-5/8" ID silicone hose is a lot easier to install. It's worth investigating because the 1-1/2" ID silicone can be a b*tch to install.

    The 1-1/2" rubber stuff from Napa is a snap to install because it is more rigid and you can push it onto the metal pipes without it collapsing.

    I honestly prefer the look and ease-of-install of the 609 hose from Napa. Looks like OEM, and will last probably 20 years. (The OEM lasted longer than that!) But the silicone is the only stuff I could find long enough to do the long runs in the Mondial. The 308 has no long runs (Well, it does have long runs, but they are aluminum pipe, not rubber hose). I just did my whole 308 with the #609 from Napa. I just got it together and bled yesterday. No leaks, bled nicely and runs cool!

    Birdman
     
  8. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    Hi Bird,

    Did you note the part numbers for the 90 degree stuff and the length of the silicone hose for the 308??

    Are we still looking at 22 clamps for the 308??

    thanks,
    chris
     
  9. jsumnertx

    jsumnertx Karting

    Dec 9, 2004
    83
    Austin
    Thanks to FChat, I saw Birdman's original thread and had my mechanic look at my coolant hoses while it was in for its summer maintenance (unlike you Northerners, August is the month to put the car away rather than take it out.. 105F just aint fun). Some of the hoses were in bad shape and were likely original. The one that goes from the front up into the dash was the worst and it's apparently a PITA to change. So, word to the wise, take a look at your hoses. And, of course, make sure all of your fuel hoses are relatively new too. But I had already done those 5-6 years ago.
     
  10. TK 328

    TK 328 Karting

    Dec 24, 2006
    167
    Perth West Australia
    Full Name:
    Tony
    Have not read this whole thread but I have a 328 in Australia and a Kit to do all hoses to futer proof her sounds great. I aint no mechanic and this maybe a how long is a piece of string question but how many hours would it take ballpark??? and would it best be done while doing what other work ie fluids time belt etc....Sorry if a uninformed question.Tone
     
  11. rtking

    rtking Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2006
    703
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Bob King
    Resurrecting an older thread, I just have to say to those that have done this upgrade, "You guys are amazing." This job is a major pain in the rump!

    I didn't make the F-chat awards party because one of my hoses started leaking. I was just going to address the leaking hose, but decided to redo all the hoses while I was at it. I ordered the blue silicone hose from McMaster Carr and got extra to do all the hoses in blue except for the 90 degree elbow and lower radiator hose (those will get replaced with a 90 degree piece from Pep Boys.) All the other pieces are straight, so the silicone hose will work fine. With my wife and son out of town, tonight seemed like a good night to start.

    First - getting to the hoses on a Mondial means dropping the plate covering the fuel tanks. (There are fourteen 10mm bolts holding that on.) Then draining the coolant wasn't so much fun. (I had the car on jackstands. A lift would make this MUCH easier.)

    Second - getting the long hoses off was a challenge. I had to cut part of the hose open at the radiator end to get it off the steel pipes. Pulling the hose out after that wasn't too bad. Looking into the hose was fairly shocking - they were deteriorating and were cracked. The long hoses were definitely living on borrowed time. While you're in here, get new radiator clamps. The originals probably are corroded and shouldn't be re-used.

    This is where I stopped. I was drenched in coolant and pulling the two long hoses pretty much took most of my evening. I'll tackle cutting the silicone hoses and re-installing tomorrow.

    What have I learned (even though I'm nowhere close to being finished?) This job is no easy task. Plan on taking a while to do this job. And if replacing all coolant hoses like me, plan on having lots of evenings to do this. But if you're going to do this job, get the silicone hose so you only have to do this job once.

    Bob
     
  12. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    Hey Bob,
    So did you ever finish?

    Birdman
     
  13. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2007
    40,767
    Bavaria, The 'Other' Germany
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    Mark W.R.
    Birdman,

    I am slow and a bit confused. I need the info (lengths, IDs, ODs, clamps, Part #'s, etc) for all the coolent hoses for a 308. (Need to do the fuel lines too this summer and will get that kit later this month.)

    Can you please post that info for us "slow reader group" types?

    Mark
     
  14. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    The 308 is easy. It's all just short little pieces of 1-1/2" ID hose plus a 90 degree piece at the top of the radiator. Buy a 3' chunk of 609 at NAPA and an elbow, plus a box of hose clamps. Probably cost $35.00

    Birdman
     
  15. rtking

    rtking Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2006
    703
    Huntington Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Bob King
    Hi Birdman - I did eventually finish with the help of this forum. There are two tubes with slight kinks in them toward the engine that I couldn't figure out the orientation on. As it turns out, the manual was wrong and a photo from a fellow forum member set me straight. The Silicone Hoses are awesome pieces (but a bit hard to put on since the inside diameter is just a little small.) Those hoses should last a good long time. I did sell my Mondial this last weekend, so I think the new owner will really enjoy not having to worry about those hoses!

    Bob
     
  16. 89vr

    89vr Rookie

    Apr 30, 2007
    42
    Midlothian TX
    Full Name:
    Chris Marotti
    I guess I'll get a kit together, I got a couple IM's way back, from other parties saying they were handling it, but I guess nothing ever happenend (i think you said that would happen, hahah). I still have your 90 elbow you sent me. I try and get a kit together by the end of next week and post up pictures, only problem is still the clamps, you'll have to source that or let the end user determine what they want.

    Kit will only be one color, black, it's to hard to stock the different colors esp w/ the long tubes. They're not cheap. I'll keep ya posted.
     
  17. FCnew

    FCnew Formula Junior

    May 5, 2015
    671
    Hong Kong / Canada
    Full Name:
    Jonathan
    .

    Did this "kit" get anywhere?
     
  18. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Owner

    Sep 3, 2002
    5,269
    Toronto / SoCal
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    Rob C.
    Over 7 years since the last post so your answer should be there
     
  19. newark_308

    newark_308 Karting
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2004
    133
    Newark DE
    Full Name:
    Glenn Frenck
    A not so quick question around this...
    Dealer has indicated this is a pig if a job to remove and replace the center tubes on my 83 308 (they want to schedule it for the next time I'm in). This includes dropping the driver side gas tank in order to route the lines correctly.
    Looking at the cooling diagram I don't see why that's required.. Can anybody shed some light on this. Other than not using the stock $400+ each rubber tubes and probably going silicone for around $100 total, I don't understand the quoted time or the $$$ quoted.
    Thanks for your insight
     
  20. newark_308

    newark_308 Karting
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2004
    133
    Newark DE
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    Glenn Frenck
    A bit more confused at the moment, are the center long tubes rubber or aluminum? Ferrari part 108081. Help 😓
     
  21. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Owner

    Sep 3, 2002
    5,269
    Toronto / SoCal
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    Rob C.
    The center tube is aluminum and connects to the right and left tanks via a connection rubber tube on either side that is about 5-6 inches long (from memory). If you are looking at silicone make damn sure that the tube you select is rated not only for gasoline but for constant immersion in gasoline. Those short rubber tubes are expensive for a reason and you want to make sure that you are comparing apples to apples when selecting a replacement.
     
  22. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 28, 2005
    3,632
    Calgary, AB, Canada
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    Gordon
    Center long tubes are aluminum. Why do those need to be replaced??!!

    The hoses that are toughest to replace are the heater hose and brake booster vacuum hose that run through the left side sill. Those are the ones that need the left fuel tank moved rearward.

    You may only need to replace the heater hose, but you should do both while you're there. Going back in a year later to replace the now leaking 30+ year old vacuum hose would be a real pain! If you're replacing cooling system hoses, you need to replace heater hoses as well - the rubber is the same age, the same coolant circulates through them, and a leak is just as bad in a heater hose as in a cooling system hose.

    By the way, I'd not bother with generic silicon hose. I used the Helms Scuderia Rampante cooling hose kit, available through Ricambi, and the SR fuel hose kit. Horses for courses, ie designed specifically for those use cases. I used automotive vacuum hose for the brake booster vacuum line.
     
  23. newark_308

    newark_308 Karting
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2004
    133
    Newark DE
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    Glenn Frenck
    That's the crux of the issue, why they would say the center tubes need to be replaced...
    There are times being anal about understanding what was proposed can lead to massive headaches. I guess the next thing will be to rotate the air in my tires..
    I'll check out the kits you listed
    Thanks for the info
     
  24. newark_308

    newark_308 Karting
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2004
    133
    Newark DE
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    Glenn Frenck
    Is part 106699, the pipe running up the left sill? It's the only thing I can identify in the cooling system diagram that appears to match the description listed in the earlier post.
     
  25. newark_308

    newark_308 Karting
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    Jul 28, 2004
    133
    Newark DE
    Full Name:
    Glenn Frenck
    Hellloooo..... Anyone.... 👍 👎
     

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