Sly_G's GTS QV rebuild thread | FerrariChat

Sly_G's GTS QV rebuild thread

Discussion in '308/328' started by Sly_G, Dec 6, 2017.

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  1. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

    Mar 5, 2015
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    Sylvain
    #1 Sly_G, Dec 6, 2017
    So it's time to share a little bit the progress on my 308. Some of you may remember I was looking for a 308 2y ago and found a 1984 GTS for a decent price, but not in a decent condition... Let's not comment further but focus on the project. I moved back to France in 2015 after 10y in Boston and brought the car back with me and started a restoration project. The idea is to get in good running condition, not to be able to leak every bolt, so the focus is on getting restoring the engine, the interior, the suspension and repair all dents/cosmetic defects / repaint.

    First a picture of the car after I recieved it in Boston:

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    After I drove a little bit, the car was dying on idle when hot and I decided to have it inspected by David (Ferrari Service of Bedford) who foudn the WUR to be malfunctionning but more importantly identified terrible compression on cylinders launching the restoration project of this thread.

    As soon as I got the car in Strasbourg, I started the project:

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    Slowly started to work on more important things:

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    Suspicioully clean, probable cause, confirmed later: rebuilt head with wrong timing (before and after repair).

    Time to get it out!


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  2. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

    Mar 5, 2015
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    Lausanne, Switzerland
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    Sylvain
    #2 Sly_G, Dec 6, 2017
  3. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

    Mar 5, 2015
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    Sylvain
    #3 Sly_G, Dec 6, 2017
  4. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

    Mar 5, 2015
    123
    Lausanne, Switzerland
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    Sylvain
    #4 Sly_G, Dec 6, 2017
  5. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

    Mar 5, 2015
    123
    Lausanne, Switzerland
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    Sylvain
    #5 Sly_G, Dec 6, 2017
    So right now, taking out the crankshaft, pistons and rods for inspection and orders are on the way to get proper seals and bearings for the full engine, as well as eventually, if there is no other choice, for steel sleeves...

    More later, cheers,

    Sly
     
  6. ME308

    ME308 Formula 3

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    Michael
    #6 ME308, Dec 6, 2017
    great project

    and just in time for the winter

    on alert :cool:
     
  7. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #7 Ferraripilot, Dec 6, 2017
    The liners look pretty good. Should be a straight-forward project. thanks for posting progress
     
  8. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

    Mar 5, 2015
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    Sylvain
    #8 Sly_G, Dec 6, 2017
    Thanks! I'm actually interested on feedback about the liners condition, since there seem to be some divergence on opinions. Either way, the goal is to have it running for a long time, and if re-conditioning of Nikasil liners is not available/recommended, I will move to replace with steel liners.
     
  9. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #9 Ferraripilot, Dec 6, 2017
    Will look forward to seeing the liners.
     
  10. wildcat326

    wildcat326 Formula 3
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    #10 wildcat326, Dec 6, 2017
    Boy, you weren't kidding; you really dug into it. VERY excited for this thread; nothing like spending the winter season on the couch with dogs, following updates on nice restoration:)
     
  11. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

    Mar 5, 2015
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    Sylvain
    #11 Sly_G, Dec 8, 2017
    So just some questions to the knowledgeable crowd of the website while I get everything parted out.

    The question of what to do once the exact condition of the liners si established.
    This is a 3 case scenario:

    Case#1: Liners are good to go. Ideally, I would like to change the piston rings. Are these still available? If so, where?

    Case #2: Liners are not perfect but not dead. Can they be repaired/re-coated with Nikasil? If so where? Question for the rings is still up in the air.

    Case #3: Some or all liners are dead and/or it is impossible to rebuild. I would be nervous to replace with NOS liners (if available) only a few cylinders since I'd like to engine condition to be as homogeneous as possible. If NOS liners are out of the picture, steel liners would be the option to go with. Would you use stock pistons and stock rings with those (still the question of sourcing good rings + can stock rings be used on steel liners)? If not, what aftermarket set would be your choice?

    cheers,

    Sly
     
  12. Crowndog

    Crowndog F1 Veteran

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    #12 Crowndog, Dec 10, 2017
    Congratulations on taking this on. I too faced the same choice at one point in my rebuild. In the discussion the point was made to me that if I went with re-coating with nikasil there is no warranty or guarantee. So if one or more went south it would mean a complete tear down again. My vote is go with iron. While you are at it you might go for a little over sizing if you are replacing pistons as well.
     
  13. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

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    Sylvain
    #13 Sly_G, Dec 12, 2017
  14. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

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    Sylvain
    #14 Sly_G, Dec 12, 2017
  15. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

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    #15 Sly_G, Dec 12, 2017
  16. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

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    #16 Sly_G, Dec 12, 2017
  17. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

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    #17 Sly_G, Dec 12, 2017
    So far I am leaning towards steel liners with appropriate rings that would work well on steel (Deves?).

    Now is time to start making some measurements.

    Will keep posting progress.

    Cheers,

    Sly
     
  18. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

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    #18 kcabpilot, Dec 12, 2017
    Based on your pictures it looks to me like there was a timing belt issue on the 1-4 bank as you can see evidence of valve contact on the pistons. That would most certainly have affected your compression readings on those cylinders.
     
  19. built2grind

    built2grind Formula Junior
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    #19 built2grind, Dec 12, 2017
    Oh this thread is going to be good : ) Can't wait for more updates.
     
  20. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

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    #20 Sly_G, Dec 13, 2017
    Indeed, you can even say several timing belt issues because this head was rebuilt before and that was likely the reason for the rebuilt (+ it is likely the 4 valves marking come from 2 separate timing issues).

    cheers,

    Sylvain
     
  21. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #21 Ferraripilot, Dec 13, 2017
    Looks ok. Bearings look pretty typical although the mains have more wear than I've seen before. I've pulled cranks and have seen main bearings look almost new on several occasions now. The rod bearings are always the point of most wear.

    I'm with Robert on replacing them with iron, but no big deal if you're just doing a stock rebuild to keep them along with the pistons if they all check out ok. That's done all the time. You can deglaze the liners using a Flex hone, just make sure you use one with that is ok for these type of nickasil liners, I believe the grit of the hone is specific for nickasil. 4-5 passes in one direction moving up and down quickly, then 4-5 in the opposite direction moving up and down quickly is the way to use a Flex hone. The Flex hone tool is actually now an official Audi dealer-approved tool for a big recall Audi had for their 2.0T engines where they had to replace the pistons and rings in literally tens of thousands of engines. Audi's manual for the job literally points to use of a Flex hone and nothing else to deglaze. I only mention this as this is the first factory endorsement of this tool I've seen. They use the same type liners, nickasil coated aluminum.

    Regarding rings. Deves set 2218 fits a QV. I have never run Deves rings in a nickasil lined motor so it would be worth a call to them to make certain they guarantee they will not be an issue. You're other option is to call Lee at Rutlands and inquire with him re the best rings to use for a QV, he undoubtedly would know as his knowledge on these motors is encyclopedic.


    Great progress, keep us posted.
     
  22. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

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    #22 Sly_G, Dec 15, 2017
    Thanks for the feedback!

    I am also leaning towards replacing with steel sleeves however the question becomes:
    - if I change the sleeves & keep original pistons: who can supply correct rings? I asked Deves about the compatibility of their rings with steel sleeves, waiting for an anwser (I asked Lee but he has no idea)
    - if I want to change pistons, who makes sets with rings compatible with steel sleeves? I saw Wiseco had at some point a set but it seems it's no longer produced.

    Cheers,

    Sly
     
  23. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #23 Ferraripilot, Dec 15, 2017
    Just about any ring out there will be fine against a steel or iron liner. Deves, Hastings etc, take your pic
     
  24. Sly_G

    Sly_G Karting

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    Sylvain
    #24 Sly_G, Mar 23, 2018
    OK, finally some news.

    It took a lot of time, but I was able to show the engine block to 5 different specialists, including 2 Ferrari dealerships (1 having recently rebuilt an F40).

    All 5 specialists agree that the cylinders are good to go with just a simple honing refresh.

    Great news and parts are being ordered right now!

    Sly
     
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  25. ferrariowner

    ferrariowner Formula 3

    Feb 21, 2014
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    #25 ferrariowner, Mar 23, 2018
    I rebuilt my 85 QV 14 years ago when I turbo charged it. Looking at your photos brings back lots of memories. I know the day will come when I need to do it again. A candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long:)
    IMHO- Use JE pistons. They already have QV piston and ring design/recommendations ( I think your safe with 10:1 compression). Good luck with your rebuild.
     
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