Sodium Valves ... curious to know

Prior to buying my GT4 I had read every single 'sodium valve' thread in the archives. I knew going into the purchase that breakage was a possibliity and I would neeed to decide whether I was going to risk it and drive like mad or budget the headwork in at some point. I'm choosing to do both! I drove as much as I could last year and will drive a ton this year. I've worked out the budget for the heads this fall. In the fall I'll pull the motor and start the process. How ever long it takes....so be it. I've talked to many on this. Mechanics, victims of a dropped valve, guys with 80,000 on a 308 and never a problem. IMO, they are a liability...

JIM

 

Well, I guess I'm about to find out first-hand how durable the Sodium valves are...

I've got a high mileage (83,000), '81 US spec 308, with the original valves (so I would assume they are Na-filled?) that has been sitting dormant for almost 4 years. In another month or two, I'll be ready to wake it from its hibernation and fire it up.

I've done all the necessary prep / precautionary maintenance for a car which has been sitting for so long, but I surely have not replaced the exhaust valves as part of the refurbish.

Stay tuned... I'll post pics if it grenades!!!

 

I knew there was something:


1. The stock sodium valve is magnetic.

2. The Ferrea valve has non magnetic heads but magnetic stem.

3. The valves I sourced most recently are non mangetic stem and head.

4. A valve that was replaced in 1995 by a reputable guy in town that charged me $100 for the valve 'cause he only uses Ferrari parts is non magnetic . . . hopefully it's not sodium filled or all bets are off . Maybe someone can confirm Ferrari officially stopped supplying sodium and switched to solid stainless? I guess I could cut the valve open . . . it's burnt to boot . . any safety/fire hazards with the powder?

5. Speaking of the powder . .. do not get pulled over with this baggie . . . don't think cop will buy you're researching Ferrari exhaust valves .

Sean
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Yes --- Sodium, especially powder and chips, will flash burn if heated to around 350F. Use a manual hack saw, go slowly, and you should be fine. If you use a band saw or cutting wheel --- keep the valve bathed in water while you cut. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a bottle of water nearby, in any case.

Also, wear a dust mask --- aerosol (fine particle) Sodium is caustic and will inflame / burn air tract tissue if inhaled in sizeable quantities.

 

The valves are coded with faint imprinted numbers on the end of the valve stem, the trouble is you need to pop out the keepers and get the valve retainer and springs out of the way to read them. With the rear cam cover off, if you put a cylinder on TDC with both valves closed and either pressure it up with air (make sure the engine CANT turn), or feed clean rope into the chamber through the spark plug hole to hold the valve in place, with proper tools you can remove the retainer without tearing the engine all apart and read the stem. It certainly wont tell you if ALL the valves are sodium, there are a lot of these cars running around with different cylinder heads and mismatched parts, but at least youll know if the one's you check are or not. Perhaps Dave could confirm this further, but the 308 exhaust valve I have in my hand reads EL BM ST FS, and I was told by several sources this is a sodium filled valve.

Tony, I stand 100% on my pricing estimate. If anyone takes one of these car in to have it overhauled, not counting mangled heads or bent valves, any reputable shop charging labor is going to be into the car for over $15K. Nobody is going to go to that level of work and put gunked up dirty carbs or sloppy worn out distributors back on it, its going to be the full meal deal. Stuff a broken valve stem back up into a cylinder head and mash the loose valve head into it a few hundred times before it finds something to jam into, and if the head isnt totally destroyed it will take a lot of careful and expensive welding to make it work again. So add a used ($$$$) or repaired ($$$$) head into your costs along with various ($$$$) other parts, and the cash register can really start to go Ka-ching. If you research the issue deeper you will find the labor time to do an overhaul at over 40 hours, probably over 50 to be more realistic, and that alone would add another $5K to as much as $7K or more to your costs.

Lucky, your right about parts costs, but this is what you get with low production. The engine bearings are specific to this engine, so its not like Ferrari gave Vandervell a parts order for a few hundred thou or a million like everyone else would give, probably like 10K parts per order. Some parts like seals you can source outside, you could even cut your own gaskets, but something like a head gasket or a rod bearing is truly a limited production part. They really arent Hondas or Toyotas, or even 911's in this regard, they are real low production. Less than 12,000 cars in a 10 year span isnt very many cars, and if you consider the cars that have been destroyed, possibly 1/2 to 3/4ths of the total production, and another percentage that have never been opened up since new, Ferrari probably arent selling too many spare parts for 308's.

 

...good point...been wondering about this for some time...

Up until now, parts prices for 308's have been quite reasonable --- considering the volume, age, rarity, exotica, etc. In a decade or so, I wonder if parts will become seriously $$$ and / or completely unavailable???

The prospect of a major rebuild / repair costing in excess of $20K, for a car worth only $30K, could have an "interesting" effect on market values and supply of runnable cars --- would the value of the 308 upscale dramatically? Or, will we see alot of cars turned over as parts donors???

 

. . . then . . . .

. . . . then . . .

I made a typo above: I meant to say it met the high end of my estimate ($10k). My mind was backwards there.

Please bear in mind that I said $5k-$10k in parts, not including labor (other than basic machining/inspecting), as I was commenting to James that your price was for people who pay someone else to do it (i.e. including labor). That was implied for a "normal wear" rebuild, just as your price was. I priced everything on Superformance (for better or for worse), and it's hard to get the total over $10k without adding pistons ($2k), which are not always needed for a basic rebuild. I did not include rods. If the damage is getting that serious, buying a used running engine and freshening it up might be an alternative to liners, rods, welding, heads, etc.


Paul -- thanks for the 'how to spot a sodium valve' thing -- I will remember this thread when I dig into my engine.

 

The ratio of "engine build + labor costing near the value of the car" and "DIY engine build costing near half the value of the car" exists in some other exotic-ish cars of that era, too (albeit at a lower cost scale). I sometimes wonder if the value of the car affects the parts prices and/or vice versa.

I'll bet there are quite a few non-running 308s hiding in barns, garages, and warehouses, because they are too valuable to scrap and too expensive for the owner to fix.

 

Sadly, that is possible... But, I certainly hope not, as then they are wasted, in my view.

 

Indeed, consider the plight of the poor Maserati Bi-turbos (1980's series cars)...

Once they cost as much as $60K new. They were great cars (when they actually ran), but were so horribly unreliable and expensive to repair / maintain, that their values simply plummeted without end. Today, they trade hands for little more than beer money, and still there is almost no market for them --- although the Brits seem to still hold a sentimental candle for these un-loved beasts...

 

I remember back in the early 70's washing parts that contained a broken Mercedes valve, off with water. The sodium from the exhaust valve was explosive when it contacted water. I can still remember the valve stem dancing around on the floor throwing sparks out the end. A serious concern if it is the same with the Ferrari part as it self ignited when in contact with water.

Sean, Take a match head size glob of the sodium out of the stem and toss it in a bucket of water and see what happens. Outside with goggles! If its the same, you wouldnt want a baggie of that stuff in any car interior.

Dave, I think the risk factor is very low from sitting. By far, most of the failures I have been involved in result from serious over rev's involving valve float. Not to say it cant just happen on its own, I just personally havent been involved with any that did that I am aware of. The Daytona engine I am in now was a factory race car from new. When the valve broke it hit the piston once and jamed the valve head back into the exhaust port sideways and stayed there. Luck is a very good thing yet it still twisted the rod.

I think we are all on the same page about costs. It is damn expensive in either a DYI or Pro effort, this we can all agree on. I am on my 3rd core engine to build one. Three cores plus the origional and I still have to buy pistons and liners so in my case I have ventured well past Tony's high end estimate. I purchased my White 77 GTB from a customer that missed a shift at redline and he really zinged it. I had 2 cylinders like the earlier pictire where the pin was still in the rod with no signs of a piston to be found. Even at that, the engine still started and the cam belts had not jumped timing. My "Welded Piston" engine was not a core, it was a "tune it up and drop it in" purchase from a running car. Fortunately this engine was from a car a half a dozen cars later than mine so the numbers are correct for my car which I consider a real bonus in the end.

 

Dave,

You're one h*ll of a mechanic, but you wake up WAY TO FREAKING EARLY!!! Dude, get some sleep .

James in Denver

 

My Dad recalls the military made them bury sodium valves in the ground after removal so they wouldnt hurt anyone. He didnt know where they went, just that was what they did. Hopefully they figured out something better to do with them in the ensuing 60 years?

Re: Bi Turbos.

Twin turbo charge and intercool a carbed 308 and and see how easy it is to work on. Now take it down to the local four wheel drive and off road center and ask Billy Bob if he can figure it out. Youll have a small block cheby under the hood with bale wire, zip ties and grade 5 SAE bolts faster than you could say golly gee, mister. IMHO the BiTurbo was far too complex for most people in North America to comprehend. Seriously, most people have a hard time understanding a lawn mower engine. A twin turbocharged all aluminum twin cam 3 valve V6 blowing through Weber carbs and intercoolers is just to much for poor old Billy Bob's brain to consider.

 

Geeeeeez, Dave --- Thank you!!! You are correct! I completely forgot about that "detail"...

My sincere apologies, Sean --- As I gave you some very bad (perhaps dangerous) advice there indeed...Icks-nay on the water! I guess my chemistry is getting a bit rusty...

Here's the water-Sodium reaction: This only happens with pure Sodium, and I would assume the Sodium used in the valves is most likely a Sodium compound (which wouldn't burn this way) --- but, I wouldn't bet my singed eyebrows on it!! As Dave mentions, the Sodium that Mercedes used was pure enough to react...
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Yeah, they were certainly complex to be sure... But, every aspect of the cars' build quality (except the very nice leather upholstery) was shoddy. Back in the mid '90's, I owned a few of the pre-425 series Bi-turbos. Every time I sat in one of the cars, something broke! I finally gave up and got rid of all of them forever ---- after making repairs on everything from the rear boot latch to the front grille emblem!

One of the premier, independent Maser mechanics (I won't drop his name, because he enjoys his privacy) in the Northwest, and perhaps in all of North America, summed it up best one day when I was over at his shop ---- He pointed to the door handle on my Audi parked next to a Bi-turbo and said, "Audi had more Engineers work on that door handle than Maserati had work on their entire car."

BTW, in the case of the Bi-turbo, overhead cam, 3-valve head design... Having a single cam lobe operating a single tappet that is shared by two adjacent valve stems (each contacting the very rim of the tappet) is not only complex ---- it's "Rube Goldberg" stupid design.... the perfect torture device for bending valve stems and wearing out valve guides.

I've seen boxes of bent Bi-turbo valves (about 50 or so were mine!!) ---- but hey, getting 10,000 miles before needing a head rebuild and valve replacement isn't too bad, right! --- LOL

 

I'm sorry how is this childish again? You need to lighten up pally.. seriously. As far as a 20K engine rebuild, yes sorry but I still think you're on crack (that's called a JOKE to those with no sense of humor).

BUT, to clarify - my engine rebuild would be one of ME buying the parts, and doing the labor myself. So, I would be well under 10K, and if I wasn't, it's donor motor time.

 

Dave Helms....see if 'Gadwin Printscreen' software will work, on your boroscope......

*trying to help*

 

You must know someone whom to get parts wholesale then.

To clarify myself:
gaskets $1400
seals $ 300
main bearings $ 600
rod bearings $ 400
cranksaft service $ 200
pistons $1300
liner boring $ 400
carb kits w/floats $ 400
ignition parts $ 400

Thats all from memory so some figures are high, but some are low, and theres a lot of stuff I forgot, and stuff I still dont have. When you have the motor out, most people pull the tanks and replace the AC and all coolant hoses, clamps, lines, etc.. Then there is paint and chemicals, replating stuff, filters, maybe exhaust coatings, maybe a new muffler, almost assuredly a new clutch, second gear syncro, drive axle boots redo, rear wheel bearings, brakes,... its always ends up being a LOT more than just a simple engine overhaul. The whileyourintheres will bury you.

 

Am I missing something? Aren't we getting well beyond an engine rebuild here? I mean if all else has been maintaned one can just focus on the motor..yes?

 

Yes, you CAN remove the fuel tanks with the engine in the car, and then be able to replace lines and hoses, and if thats all been done in the recent past you can avoid that whole mess. And ditto the carbs, distributors, etc.. But many of these cars have NOT been maintained, and need just about everything by the time you get the motor out. And some of it you wont see until its all spread out in front of you.

 

...and many of these cars have been maintained! )

Paul,

I think the point that is being overlooked here is that many people who do their own work:

1) can make a judgement call as to what really needs to be done and can go back and do lesser/external things later that a paying customer would pay for up front (and unnecessarily) out of fear of another big labor bill later (like clutch, etc.), and

2) will probably not have bought a car needing *everything* because they know better (and maybe actually read the service records rather than being stupefyingly impressed by a stack of yellow paper), are more likely to know the age of everything, and if they have owned it for a while have probably already rebuilt the carbs, replaced the water pump (with the last T-belt...), etc.


Seriously, an engine rebuild by anyone's standard does not include clutch, water pump, carburetors, and other external things.

No one here is saying <$10k to replace everything under the engine lid. We're saying <$10k to rebuild the engine, which is attending to what needs to be replaced, not replacing everything one happens to remove from the car in the process, which may have the majority of its sevice life still left.


www.superformance.co.uk:

Ball bearings and belts -- $300 for everything you can think of
Pistons -- $2000
Full set of rings -- $400
All bearings and thrust washers -- $600
Full gasket set -- $1000
All the shaft seals you can imagine -- $100
All the valves -- $700
All the valve guides -- $500
All the valve seals, circlips, shims -- $200
Valve springs -- $300
Boring, checking, shaving, decking, etc. at your favorite machinist $1000
_______________________

Total -- ~$7100 . . . . sure, there's more that can be added (for example add a few hundred dollars if the cylinder head and/or rod bearing studs/bolts are stretched), but on the other hand, pistons and valve springs sometimes are not needed. To get the prices, I doubled the GBPs and rounded up or added a couple together and rounded up.


Obviously, that excludes shop supplies, so figure a couple hundred for that, too. It's looking to me like $8000 will buy a DIYer a fairly thorough rebuild, and one stands a chance to scrape by for under $6k.

If you feel that some of the parts from Superformance might be substandard and that better quality will be obtained elsewhere for a higher but still reasonable price, that would be good to know.

- T

 

Man... This thread has really wandered!

NEWBYDUDE --- Do you want to kill it, or should I? It needs to be put out of its misery...

 

The only thing that I would challenge is the head work. I have two quotes here from very reputable shops for roughly $3500 for replacing Sodium valves with Stainless, all machine work, simple port/polish job, new guides, seals, clips, etc.....

JIM

 

OK...I can see it. Especially considering the amount of time I have spent [all part time] replacing some of the critical hoses I can reach from the wheel wells, below the plenum and under the air box and expansion tank. Of course it would be easier if I had the time and equipment on hand to pull the motor. This is something I may consider next winter. At that time I may pull the heads, send them out and have them serviced w/new valves, do the port/polish. I think the $3500 I have heard arount the forum is reasonable considering the benefits. Plus I can drive [almost] worry free

The picture shows my progress as of today. I have replaced the fuel filler hose and vent lines, crossover fuel hoses, misc. vac and breather hoses [some even match the cloth braided ones], stripped and repainted the plenum, air filter box [waiting for the stencil] and had the expansion tank repaired. Did all of the cooling hoses unter the plenum and down towards the tranmission. Replacing the rear cam cover gasket and dizzy seal.

Next I will replace the front brake pads, all four brake hoses w/SS, treat underneath any surface rust and hopefully have it back on the ground later next week.

Then it's on to the rear wheel bearings [one is groaning a little], rear brake pads, E brake, and I will go thru the exhaust system..It looks like the seals are pretty corroded, I imagine they leak a little. Perhaps I will install a test pipe or at least core the cats.

Drive the car for a year and back in for the winter projects next year
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Jim, IMO you should contact Dave Helms for a quotation on the heads, if you are considering the work....

His sources on the components will be worth the cost on the shipping.....

Now, Dave, save me three sets of valves, brudda!
Image Unavailable, Please Login