Your just about up to where I said I was in parts, without any duty or shipping costs. Even at $2K for head work youll be at $10K with no labor, and no misc. extras that are bound to add another 20%. Most DIY'ers do not have the ability to grind valves and stems, cut seats, etc., thats outside work. You still dont have hoses added in, and this all assumes nothing was damaged. Wreck a head and you will easily add another $2K to the costs. So train wreck or not, its a $10 deal in parts or more. IF you dont drop a valve, which is the premise of this thread, you are virtually guaranteed to damage the head requiring a lot of $$$ in repairs at a bare minimum, and it will push the costs well over $10K for a DIY job. Now add in the labor for those who cant or wont do the work themselves.
Seriously, dude, you quoted a price for a standard overhaul with labor (post #14), and I quoted what a standard overhaul can be done for without labor. Go back and read. Stop trying to obfuscate it. And may your 308 never drop a valve so you don't wind up spending the value of another 308 in fixing it.
Just to be totally clear here: NO QV or later (1983 - now) engine has sodium valves. Ferrari stopped those back in 82 across the board. Correct?
I'd like to add there's nothing special about the 308 heads . . . in fact they might be easier than old cast iron heads that you have to machine out the guide to knock a new one in. I have the most basic valve and seat grinding setup but I have some experience on iron motors from years ago . I could make basic tools to sell to knock the guides out and knock new guides in . .. then it's just down to regrinding valves and seats . .. yeah you might need a new seat here and there but my fire motor was rusty as I could ever imagine and I got away without seats . .. next time I'll replace a couple seats where the valves got a little low. I have all the correct installed heights layed out which I don't think was in the manual either. I think you'd be surprised how inexpensive a machine shop would do the required machine work . . . espeically if you invested in a valve spring compressor . .. it takes some time to set the valve train up the first time but I would think anyone that's doing their own motor would enjoy this part . Now porting . .. I don't think that falls into a basic rebuild . . I also just bought brand new brake rotors but I don't think they should be included either . Sean
I think head work depends entirely upon where you live. Up where im at most of these guys have never seen a Ferrari. They are either afraid to touch them, or will not treat them well. Then there is the cost of saying the name, which seems to triple the cost of even the simplest work. Then there are the shops that have done a few. Those guys think they are Gods, and charge appropriately. A shop in the south metro did some 355 heads once, now they are so much superior to everyone else, they quoted me the low ball price of $4500. Could be more, they have to see them first you know. So yeah, I might try and do more myself. Ive already popped all the valves out myself, I guess I could get braver and push the guides out.
I was very amused by Stratos's comment that sodium-filled exhaust valves are a "non-issue" on the 308! Ho Ho Ho! What a laugh! These valves were fitted in the 246s, early 308s and the 365BBs, and quite frankly, I believe that they are like random time-bombs. Some of you may want to chance it - but I never would again, and I curse myself that I ignorantly took that gamble before, because the preventative cost would have been nothing in comparison to what it did cost me in the end! Here is how my "non-issue" experience with my '77 308GT4 went: For background, the car was used most week-ends, but had less than 40,000km on the dial. It was well-maintained and in great tune. The engine was at normal operating temperature. It was running at a steady 3,500 RPM under light load up a hill in 3rd gear. It was a lovely, sunny Saturday, and.... Suddenly, in an instant, it sounded like someone had thrown a handful of nuts and bolts into a washing machine on spin cycle (not that I've ever done that, but that's what it brought to mind). Massive grey-white plumes of smoke billowed out the back of the car - it was a magnificently spectacular moment, though one of utter despair! I declutched as quickly as I could, coasted to the curb and switched off. And that was that - suddenly, it was a very rotten Saturday. And I though, there goes an aweful lot of beer money! Here is what had happened. A sodium-filled exhaust valve that, as we know, is a "non-issue" in the 308, had decided to be contrary to this theory and that it was a perfectly good time to separate its head from its stem. The valve head had then decided to test the structural integrity of the top of the piston, which turned out to have a bit less structural integrity than one might have hoped. So with the piston thus shattered, the suddenly liberated connecting rod had a jolly old time ripping out the liner and then trying to jam itself in the block, which of course was a testing moment for the crankshaft. Meanwhile, various fragments of metal from what were now numerous sources of destruction joined forces with the oil and the water which were now happily sharing space together, and this spontaneous mixture of stuff ran all through the rest of the motor - everywhere - including into oilways, into oil coolers and even into the radiator. And all this happened in what seemed like an instant - but it may have been half a second. Now, this may seem like a "non-issue" to some of you, but my bank account is here to tell you to the contrary. I have banged on about this in other threads on this topic, posted pictures of the stuff that came out of the sump after the event and so on. Have a look if you want. Whatever, in the end, make sure that you make your own decision in knowledge rather than in blissful, optimistic ignorance like I did. Cheers, Grahame
I never heard your story before, but id heard enough of them the last 30 years to know better than to chance it. I remember seeing one in Hemmings back in 79 or 80 that dropped a valve, that was the first 308 id heard of it happening. It pretty much destroyed the engine from what the seller told me, pokeyed a hole through the block, bent rods, smashed a head to junk. I physically seen one with my own two eyeballs at TR back in 2001 that dropped a valve, or possibly threw a belt. Its hard to tell sometimes what happened if there is too much damage. If it drops a valve it could break a belt, and if a belt lets go it could break a valve. But in any case that motor really came unglued. The rod let go and exited the side of the block and buried itself into the gearbox and took that out too. About the only parts salvageable were the front head, carbs, headers and clutch, etc., it pretty much destroyed the rest. I seen pictures of a Dino V6 that come apart, it broke cams and did all kinds of horrific damage. You just never know. Myself I would have thought 3500 rpm wouldnt be enough to do the level of damage as what yours did, but now I know better than to think that way.
Well, thanks for your comments. I gave my story above about the 308GT4 dropping the valve in the hope that it helps others. Interestingly, back when the engine died, 2 other events happened to me. My daily driver (not a Ferrari) was then stolen - I had known that it was a popular theft target, yet I had not got around to upgrading the alarm/disabling system, so, in essence, I hadn't heeded that lesson either. And then I was diagnosed with cancer - they said to me, you know, we've run these tests and it may or may not be dreadfully serious but we just don't know for sure and there are several ways to go from here. And then I very seriously canvassed many opinions, did heaps of research and then said - you'd better get in there quick-smart and do something about it - which they did, and it was much worse than they had thought. So they chased the cancer around a bit and after about 5 hours they sewed me up again. And I said, how was it, and they said, pretty bad - spreading in a couple of unexpected directions - you were hard work! And I asked, how long did I have without you going in, and they said, about 2-3 years, tops. And though I have tests every few months, I am now beyond my use-by date and living with the gift of extra time, seeing my kids grow up, having time with my wife, planning for the future and driving the Ferrari, the repair of which became my recovery project! And I thought, I'm no longer stock-standard - I've had a few mods and repairs made - and what the heck, the Ferrari doesn't have to be stock-standard either! So rather than trying to rebuild the 308 motor, I bought a 328 Mondial motor from Ted Rutland and had it shipped over here, and then thought, this motor doesn't have to be stock-standard either, so made a number of mods to it as well. On the outside, I still look much the same as I always did (though not sure how good a thing that is) but on the inside I'm a whole lot better and I'm having fun again. And its the same with the Ferrari - on the outside it looks dead standard - it just goes a whole lot better and is more fun to drive. And that's my story about karma, the lessons of history and things coming in 3s! Cheers, Grahame
Great story! I'm glad to hear about passing your 'use by' date. Enjoy those kids, Wife and that great little Ferrari!!!! JIM
The sodium valves do break, 11 years ago when i was looking to buy a GTB, I had it narrowed down to 2 cars, and the owner of the car that was my first choice wouldn't negotiate on the price.., so I bought the other car. Lucky thing that. Because a few weeks later, while giving another prospective buyer a test drive, the car I missed out on swallowed a valve. I heard the guy still bought the car, after negotiating a 5K ( AUS ) discount, thinking how expensive could it be? - Well later that year the mechanic who fixed it mentioned that the repair ended up costing over 20k , with a new head, liner set, pistons etc etc, Meranwhile, the car I bought had some oil leaks , and with the engine out ( and haunted by the close shave I had ) I decided it was a good idea to replace the valves while the engine was out. In the past I was been sceptical about the need to replace sodium valves, but as time goes on and I hear of more failures my view has gradually changed. My GT4 has not been driven much in the past few years and still has the sodium valves in it, consequently I've self imposed a driving ban on that car until I replace the valves later this year. If I was buying a 308 at the moment, I would negotiate the price of the valve repair off the price ( unless there was proof it was done ). Michael
I was on the verge of the time bomb when I opened up my motor to discover three BENT valves. I caught them in the nick of time. If they had bent any more, they certainly would have broke. I replaced them all with solid stainless. And the guides too and amongst all of these posts in this thread, no one mentioned anything about that. The single biggest cause of these valve failures is really not the valve, but the GUIDE. The guide wears and as they wear, the valve does not go perfectly up and down, but wobbles side-to-side a bit. It doesn't take much, a few thou, but it is enough that it causes the head of the valve to strike the seat at one concentrated point, instead of it's entire circumfrence. When that much force is applied to that single point, it doesn't take much for the valve to bend, because the stem's walls have no meat on them (I believe the wall thickness was less than 1 mm, the rest is the sodium). And it can only take that for a little while. So when you replace the valves, replace the guides as well. On my engine, there was considerable run-out with the valves in the original guides, especially the ones with the bent valves...
We should probably sticky this thread, its going to come up again and this has been a great and informative discussion. PS Grahame, sorry to hear of your health issues, but I'm tremendously glad your "past your expiration date", reminds me of the movie "Gataca", mind over matter . James in Denver
Grahame, sorry to hear your story and other incidents which, I think, are all part of life. It's great to know someone who sounds positive after such mishaps, I certainly I'm not like that. Going back to the valve thing, I have replaced the valves on my 246 engine (in the Stratos) with solid steel ones. This is a full race engine revving to more than 8500 rpm. On the 308 this thread has given me some food for thought but I am still not convinced that valves are the issue. My 308 runs sodium filled valves and is rarely used (pity really). I plan to use it more in the near future. Will I be changing the valves? I really don't know. These are old cars and need care. The way you describe your incident leads me to believe you were not exaggerating. In any case though what makes sense is not to change just the valves, it would be stupid. You need to change valves, guides, seats to make some efficient intervention and of course the work and parts are not cheap. You would be using beryllium guides and phosphor-bronze seats to make the job worthwhile and these don't come cheap. 3 or 5 angle-cut seats + fitting + fitting new guides + parts + work as above can cost more than 6K. And would you be stopping there if you overhaul the heads? No performance camshafts? How about some high compression forged pistons (in place of the ridiculously low compressed stock) but then you add big end/small end bearings, there is no end. It all comes down to personal choice but to choose everyone should be aware of the advantages and disadvantages of each approach. Spend 6+K now to prevent a possible source of problems (being aware that numerous other problems can occur at any given instant) or wait for the inevitable to happen and manage it from there. I am still not convinced that sodium filled 308 valves are an issue as I am still not convinced that the root cause of your problem was the valve.
Sorry,,old thread I know. But pure sodium burns immediately with exposure to water. Every time. I know. I used to be an enterprising teenager. Is the valve-filler not pure sodium?
