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spain: so you thought electing an appeaser would save you from terrorists.....

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by ross, Apr 2, 2004.

  1. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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  2. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    So, so true, Ross.

    Why is this lesson so very hard for Eurpoeans to learn? They keep making the same mistakes, decade after decade after century.
     
  3. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I think that owes to "live and let live" philosophy compared to "live and learn."

    I'd be interested to read responses from those Europeans and Yanks who are more well-travelled than I, though.
     
  4. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    this is not necessarily a pan-european type of response at the moment. remember that the uk, italy, holland, poland, etc are all very cognizant of how terrorism needs to be fought.
    i will go ahead and add that france and germany are pretty much on the case as well - even though you may think the opposite. the french anti terror unit is one of the most effective in the world (ask anybody you might know in the fbi/cia/nsa). the germans aren't so bad at cracking the nut either.

    the problem is one of perception imho. the general population of europe is/was on board for an anti terror campaign after 9/11. and they are much more willing to give up some of their own civil rights in pursuit of the terrorists in their midst. but the way the iraqi thing evolved and was presented, twisted, and abused by chirac, schroeder, the belgians, and russia (just to name a few), created a situation where the population at large got into an anti american/anti bush downward spiral, where they lost sight of facts. (btw, the same thing happened when reagan put the icbm's in europe in 84 - and they eventually got over it).
    so where are they now? they are scared of terrorism and want to do something about it. unfortunately the media has kept the american animosity alive along with a very vocal anti-everything minority, such that the general consensus is that any terrorist incident is just as much the fault of the USA as it is the terrorists - which of course is ludicrous, but look at whence it comes..... so, even more unfortunately, they will only respond in the right way once a few more incidents have rocked their worlds, and they realize that hiding or appeasing didn't help them either. and it will happen.

    the other great irony imho, is that some of the anti american bias at the moment is based on the opinion that the USA got into iraq for oil, or some sort of personal commercial reason of gwb's. (lets not get into that argument again - just let it lie there for the moment while i make my point). when in fact it is coming to light that chirac's friends (and probably himself), and koffi annan's son (and many others) made obscene amounts of illegal money out of the oil-for-food program, and probably some illegal arms deals during the embargo era. this blindness to their own chicanery, but full acceptance of every harebrained conspiracy theory about bush/cheney, is very annoying and very puzzling.

    anyway, all the above is just my opinion, so no excessive flaming please.
     
  5. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    Right Ross, and why is this not being bantied about every three seconds on the news? To Slim and Whart and Art et al. who think we should be regulated by the UN and the World Court and other similar kangaroo courts, where is the outrage? Bush and Cheney and all their "oil buddies" supposedly went into Iraq to control OIL remember? But for some reason our prices are still climbing and the fact that we de-facto run Iraq right now and control about 12% (I believe) of the oil production apparatus has NOT helped us one bit to date with getting "cheap oil" This is why I am saying, whether people agree with me or not, why we do not need to listen to the UN hypocrite, thief, lyers when making policy regarding our nation and it's foreign policy and security. Good thing Spain elected a "nice guy" socialist who wants to "feel the pain of terrorists and understand more WHY the hate us so" Appeasement working brilliantly again, just like in WWII.
     
  6. aventino

    aventino Formula Junior

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    I thought it was big-business led US foreign policy and Spain's attempt to appease a Bush administration by joining the US in Iraq that landed them with all these problems. Sorry but the US cannot rant on about a need for democracy in Iraq while propping up a most undemocratic Saudi Arabia next door and think the rest of the world's too stupid to notice.

    US citizens have over the past three decades been amongst the largest financial supporters of the IRA so perhaps you have experience from both sides of the terrorism fence that much of Europe doesn't have. The irony in all this misery is that the one country in Europe that has thrown out or locked up or denied entry to more muslim radicals than any other is France. Most of those thrown out or sent back to the Middle East/North Africa ended up getting into the UK and preaching there instead. But, because of the UK support of the US in Iraq this point is conveniently overlooked in the American media.
     
  7. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Appeasement works ?

    LOL
     
  8. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    Having lived in Europe and worked with a number of NATO allies, they are great people and friends.
    As hard as it is still for me to believe, my overwhelming impression remains the European media however is way way more biased than anything seen in America, and will leverage sensationalism past any sense American could tolerate. American supermarket tabloids are more objective. Fox and CNN are pillars of unbiased objective reporting compared to anything in Europe.

    As well we Americans cannot begin to understand European politics using American politics as a reference or starting point - vastly more complex and unscrupulous in leveraging the press to its own ends.

    The Spanish are good people - they were led to a terrible mistake which they are now waking up and finding.
     
  9. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    aventino, some good points, some not as good.
    the usa is sort of on the side of the saudi's but it is an uncomfortable relationship at best. it used to be quite a cozy symbiotic deal, but with the rise of wahhibism as the main pillar of islamic terrorism, the relationship is getting stretched. (some of the effects are being seen in their current stance within opec, as discussed in other threads).

    the USA i think recognizes fully that the saudi's are not all they should be at the moment. but the problem is: what is the alternative? if the current rulers were not there and they suddenly had a democracy, with their population skewed substantially by the low average age (50pct below 25) and huge unemployment (30pct), the situation could get far worse, and on every level.
    i believe that the current thinking is that if we can establish some sort of 'beachhead' democracy in iraq, and sit there with a sufficiently large military and economic force, that over time all of the difficult countries in the region will evolve in that direction.
     
  10. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    But if only we could sit down and reason with them just one more time.......

    Come on guys....let's all sing together.....Kumbayah ma lord.....Kumbayah.....
     
  11. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    #11 maranelloman, Apr 2, 2004
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  12. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    MM HILARIOUS!! That POS Daschle! What a joke he is!
     
  13. aventino

    aventino Formula Junior

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    I agree but by propping up the Saudi kingdom you may only be putting off the inevitable (when oil can no longer support the economy) and allowing a far worse situation to occur if and when the current rulers are replaced. For all the gungho nature of the US they have made some crap foreign policy decisions in the past, so can anyone really expect other nations to jump on their bandwagon every time?
     
  14. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm just surprised it took so long for protesters here, there and everywhere to make a fuss over Iraqi's dying. After all, far more Iraqi's died while Clinton was in office. Oh, wait - Protest Organizers are leftists. Never mind.
     
  15. aventino

    aventino Formula Junior

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    Yes Wax but far more Iraq's died while the US was making a fat profit selling them arms and prolonging the Iran/Iraq war.
     
  16. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    Liberal hogwash!!
     
  17. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    The US never sold arms to Iraq more or less....but merely provided them with bio-weapon samples that they could use against Iran.

    Iraq's military was equipped with French and Russian equipment.
     
  18. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    aventino, i think its called 'real politik'. that particular policy seemed like a good idea at the time, but may not meet your approval 20 years on. too bad we can't change the past.
     
  19. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

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    We didn't bother selling them, we just donated a crapload instead - gratis.

    --Dan
     

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