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Starter fix - Ratarossa

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by vincenzo, Sep 24, 2019.

  1. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Added a stand alone thread to make the search easier...

    Thanks to SpiderScott:

     
  2. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
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    Joe
    I dunno why he didn't try the relay-in-the-starting-circuit trick before he went through all that. I redid the crappy relay job the Ferrari dealer originally installed and I've never had a hot start (or really, any start) problem?

    Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Tapatalk
     
  3. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
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    relay is what worked for me. Just do it.
     
  4. 4heid

    4heid Karting

    Jul 31, 2019
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    where is the best spot to ground the relay?
    I installed the CE version recommended but havent found any good grounds with my meter. Would be nice if one of the bolts in the area of the clutch housing were viable.
    As well, I had competing directions with my relay vs what I have seen for the Bosch WR1 kit in that it switched the 85 and 86 leads. WR1 says 86 to gnd and mine says 85, but they are both Bosch relays.
    How did you wire yours? Mine has a diode so it can be sensitive to the issue. A pic would be great if anyone has one of their relay setup.
     
  5. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

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    I ground my relay to one of the intake manifold nuts. Works fine. Hope that helps.

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  6. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

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    And actually, what relay are you using? Don't use a relay that was designed for the fuse box up front! That's what the f dealer did- it doesn't belong in an engine compartment - feel free to look up my experience with that on here! :)

    I ended up using a relay from my local AutoZone, sealed up for use in an engine compartment. The wiring was: existing wire from ignition switch on back of solenoid to one side of the"low" side of the relay, the other"low" side of the relay to ground. Then a heavier gauge wire from the back of the starter (the line from the battery) to one of the "high" sides of the relay. Then the other side of the "high" side goes to where the original ignition switch wire was hooked up to the solenoid. I put a 30A fusable link in the wire from the battery to the high side. Works for me.

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  7. 4heid

    4heid Karting

    Jul 31, 2019
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    rpissm,

    Thanks for the note. I purchased a very nice waterproof one from CE Electronics, as referred in some older posts.
    I have it set up exactly as you have indicated.

    However, there is stock wiring that goes to the hot 30 terminal and the 15a terminal from the same loom, there are 2 wires.
    Do you know what these are for and how they should be bundled in this? I have left them in their stock locations.
     
  8. tf308

    tf308 Formula 3
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    I’m still at a loss as to why you don’t take the starter apart and rebuild it first.

    The thread showed him buying a new starter.

    You can buy the Bosch internal parts. At least I did for my 308qv last year.

    Don’t forget Steve Jenkins did a nice rebuild on his 512tr starter


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  9. tf308

    tf308 Formula 3
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    By design, a starter is just a huge relay by itself if you think about it. It has a cable direct from the battery attached to it.

    So, if the signal from the key isn’t getting to the starter, then your problem is somewhere in between. The fuse box?

    So, in this thread...why not spend $1000 for a new fuse box from GT car parts (fix all gremlins) and rebuild the starter for less than $100. All problems solved


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  10. 4heid

    4heid Karting

    Jul 31, 2019
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    Chris
    I had installed the relay system before my starter died. I have an entirely new Bosch one I obtained a week ago.
    I just wanted to reinstall the relay for security's sake.
     
  11. Clyde Romero

    Clyde Romero Formula Junior

    Sep 6, 2019
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    Just put in the relay
    That’s all it needs
     
  12. CRCAST

    CRCAST Rookie

    Jul 15, 2018
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    Does anyone have detailed instructions on how to wire the Bosch WR1 on a Testarossa? All the old links in the thread are down.
    Just replaced the entire starter motor and still have the same hot start issue...
     
  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Have you added a jumper wire to directly connect the large white wire in the w connector to the large white wire in the y connector? (There is no reason for this start command signal from the ignition switch Pos III to pass onto, and then off of, the fuse-relay panel -- going needlessly thru two of the flaky male-female tong terminals.)
     
  14. Clyde Romero

    Clyde Romero Formula Junior

    Sep 6, 2019
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    Just instal a relay on the hot side coming from the battery
    It will cure your hot start issues
    Use the ground off the coolant recovery tank
    It’s a no brain installation
     
  15. CRCAST

    CRCAST Rookie

    Jul 15, 2018
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    Haven't done anything with the wiring yet, wanted to make sure I have the right schematics and potentially some pix before I go connecting stuff.
    The jumper cable sounds interesting. Would that be in addition to installing the Bosh relay or in alternative?
     
  16. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    It's how to make the stock system work better without adding the complexity and weight of yet another relay. These white wire terminals in the w and y connector don't get obviously burned up like those carrying large current continuously, but they suffer similar problems -- the high current for a short time is enough the heat up the "tongs" of the female terminal reducing the grip, and the small contact points between the male and female terminal get oxidized (which increases the heating, reducing the grip, increasing the heating...in a vicious cycle to failure). One thing you can try when having a "hot no start" issue is to just wiggle (or have an assistant wiggle) the w and/or y connector during starting to see if that can get it to work.
     
  17. Clyde Romero

    Clyde Romero Formula Junior

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    go to any web forum on vw
    They have had to install starter relays
    Do the same for your car
    I have done it on mine
     
  18. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Steve,
    Which connectors do you reference as W & Y connector. Not quite sure I understand. The white connectors at the fuse panel?


     
  19. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

    Feb 20, 2015
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    #19 Qavion, Jun 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
    Standard USA wiring diagram here:

    Testarossa (USA) Battery, Alternator& Starter (Fig1)

    I assume you would wire up a relay and W-Y jumper wire something like this:

    Relay update

    Additions in magenta.

    Is there enough room on the starter battery stud to add another lug (for the power wire to the relay)?

    I'm not sure how you would jumper the W and Y plugs. Do you cut both wires and insert splices or re-pin the W & Y plugs? Or just cut away the insulation on the wires and wrap the new wire around it (with solder)?

    Vincenzo, Steve is referring to the white wires going to the W & Y plugs on the relay panel. B = white in the diagram.
     
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  20. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

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    (P.S. The diagrams have a pic of the relay panel in the top right hand corner showing plug lettering in small print)
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Yes, the w and y connectors are two of the white connectors on the fuse-relay panel, This jpeg identifies these connectors and the white wires mentioned:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    If you open the Fig 1 schematic that Ian posted (or check the TR wiring diagram), you'll see that the only thing they connect to on the fuse-relay panel is each other.

    Also, doesn't hurt to unplug/replug the square C11 connector under the coolant expansion tank to rewipe that connection (but the w and y connector connections are typically more flaky than this one):
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  22. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    #22 Steve Magnusson, Jun 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
    This is what I did (although it's better to "weave" the jumper into the original conductors before soldering rather than just wrap it around) -- removed about 3/4" of the insulation on each, soldered the (white) jumper, and covered with shrink tubing as I don't like to cut the original conductors. This also allows the original female terminals to be reinstalled back into their respective connectors -- so looks less of a modification/hack ;) (the photo above is before I added the jumper).

    Here's a shot of the splice completed at the w end and the female connector reinserted into the w white plastic housing, and the splice completed at the y end but the female connector not yet reinserted into the y white plasitic housing:

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    And a shot of the completed modification (the other "radio fuse holder" modifications in the lower right corner were made before my ownership):

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  23. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Thanks guys - that makes much more sense now.

    The only thing that doesn’t make sense is a question for Ferrari.... “Why in the world did you do that?”

    Perhaps it makes for an easier loom construction???
     
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  24. xplodee

    xplodee Formula Junior
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    Is this jumper outside of the fuse panel something all of us should do, even those of us who haven’t experienced any starter related issues?
     
  25. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    #25 Steve Magnusson, Jun 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
    IMO, yes.

    I also found that I had to run a (red) jumper wire from the single red wire in the w connector from the brake light switch to the two red wires in the y connector going to the rear brake lights (this signal also just passes on-and-off the fuse-relay panel without connecting to anything else). Unless you've changed to LED brake light bulbs, the brake light current is surprisingly high -- like 9~10A. I had noticed that all my rear brake lights often weren't working when looking in my rear view mirror and seeing the reflection in the car/truck grill behind me at a stop light (the added jumper is not shown in this photo):

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