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Starting the 360 - Concerned about oil pressure

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Mickster, Jun 11, 2018.

  1. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
    606
    Sweden
    Full Name:
    Mikael Andersson
    I have during the last two years been working on my 360 and now finally I’m getting ready to start her up.

    A few months back I drained the old oil during a few days and even emptied the oil cooler as I want fresh oil in the engine. So engine was completly dry...
    Then filled up same amount as drained and thought all was fine.

    Issue is: During wet comp test I noticed that no oil is squirting around the cams.

    I’ve had the same issue on an old BMW I was working on and back then I was told to backfill the oil pump by unscrewing the oil filter housing and pouring oil straight into the pump. Worked just fine.

    Will that work for the 360 engine as well? Dry sump / Wet sump....
     
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  3. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,391
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Remove fuel pump fuses, disable ignition coils (just unplug them) put a good battery charger on it and crank the engine over. Watch the oil pressure gauge. Once she starts moving off the peg, plug everything in and fire it up. Don' crank the engine continually for any longer then 15 seconds, or you could burn out the starter.
     
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  4. Mickster

    Mickster Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2015
    606
    Sweden
    Full Name:
    Mikael Andersson
    Thank’s a lot for the tip! Will try that!
     
  5. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2010
    639
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    You can also use a remote start button and connect it to the exciter wire on the starter and the hot post on the starter. That way you can spin the motor with the ignition switch turned off and not have to disable anything.
     
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  6. wrxmike

    wrxmike F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Mar 20, 2004
    5,760
    AU
    Full Name:
    Michael
    A cheap & simple pre-oiler can be made using a converted garden pressure sprayer, the type with a manual pump, cost around 10 bucks. Remove the spray lance and fit a threaded plug to the pressure hose that matches your oil pressure sender switch. Connect it up, put some oil in the pressure sprayer and pressurise it. Typically you can pump it up to around 15 psi before the safety valve pops, that's enough to pre oil an engine. Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  8. vincep99

    vincep99 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jun 8, 2009
    1,809
    wrxmike,
    Great idea!
     
  9. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,391
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Certainly could also do that..however if you wanted to watch the oil pressure gauge on the dash, they key would need to be on.
     
  10. janmante

    janmante Karting

    Jan 9, 2021
    164
    Full Name:
    jan mante
    would you not STILL have the issue of a "dry start" ? the parts making contact sans oil ! ( granted less severe as the motor is not on ) yes we have done this used starter motor & spun a new or other motor we have done maintenance on w/ ignition disconnected to build up oil pressure to determine oil passages are free and that the pump is working well ! Some M/C motors had/ have orifice restrictors that controlled oil feed to the top ends and these were easily clogged with w/a tiny bit of silicone sealer or debris ! so we checked carefully are your top ends getting oil ? !
     
  11. janmante

    janmante Karting

    Jan 9, 2021
    164
    Full Name:
    jan mante
    I like the IDEA ,, (If it will work ) using a Morroso -or other brand oil accumulator to pre-oil the motor they have 1.5 an d 3 Qt models and work VERY well, are well proven , uber reliable on many car, airplanes,boats, M/C's etc !
    If you do not know how they work ? they have a few LBS, LIKE 5 OR 10 ? psi of air on the other side of a sealed piston that discharges into the oil system when you either open a mechanical valve or trigger an electric solenoid . It re-fills when there is sufficient pressure in the system and can be kept closed or allowed to automatically be left open to supply oil need in case of a pressure drop or loss or be triggered to open when oil pressure falls below a pre-set level
    they are installed in any convenient location ( plenty of room under the F430 engine covers ! )
    How much oil , ( quantity ) would be needed to pre oil a F430 engine ? ?
    and where and how would one plumb it in to the oiling system ?
    Thank you for your comments and suggestions, Jan Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  13. 26street

    26street Karting

    Jan 30, 2021
    66
    Westchester New York
    Full Name:
    Mark k
    Most of all engine wear is at start up all moving parts run with a small layer of oil between them and at start up it can take a few seconds for the flow of oil to get to all the parts the crank shaft and connecting rods being the first moving parts and then on to the cam and etc it is the clearances that restrict flow and start building pressure the Oil regulator only opens when oil reaches over predetermined setpoint 80-100psi as engine wear increases oil pressure goes down the heavier the oil the higher the pressure do to the fact it can not fit through the clearances till it heats up and lightens it can then flow easily (all pumps are rated to flow is in Gallons Pre Minutes it’s the restriction to flow that’s creates pressure)

    Unless you have some kind of pre-oiling system that will not add oil to the system and over fill it which the Moroso and garden sprayer sounds like they do

    the only safe ways is either one that was mentioned earlier disconnecting fuel and spark or jumping the starter with the key off


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  14. janmante

    janmante Karting

    Jan 9, 2021
    164
    Full Name:
    jan mante
    I am in correspondence w/ Gavarino engineering who has already developed and sold well-designed pre-oiler systems for all the older Ferrari models up to the 360 !
    They use a small, external Italian aftermarket electric oil pump to prime and pre-oil the motor so it does not add extra oil that would have to be removed !
    therefore it would be very safe
    They responded and advised us their system for the F430 is not ready yet and is still in development.
    we have volunteered our F430 as a test mule for a beta or early production model .
    They also have offered a ultra-fine filtration,additional bypass filter system as I suggested for models up to the 360!
    you might ck out their website and watch their videos ! NOTE I have NO connection w/ this company ! ( yet , just 2 emails )

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    Gavarino Engineering LLC is a premier engineering company headquartered in Dayton, Ohio. Our expertise is designing superior oil filtration systems for ...
     
  15. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 23, 2007
    5,320
    North Pole AK
    Hello. Any thoughts about removing the spark plugs to reduce the pressure on the bearings while turning the engine over to get oil pressure?
     
  16. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    697
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    #13 raemin, Feb 24, 2021 at 6:44 AM
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021 at 7:02 AM
    That's what my mechanic does, with a tea-spoon amount of oil in order to lubricate the cylinder walls. Not sure it is necessary for pre-oiling, but on a vintage car this is so to say mandatory given that starter and battery are under-sized and cannot sustain the load for more than a handfull of seconds.

    To answer @Mickster question, I've got a dedicated toggle switch that allows me to shut-off ignition and pumps. I had to do it this way because the ignition was not protected by a fuse, so had to physically disconnect the ignition module which was a pain. Obviously if one can remove a few fuse and achieve the same result that's better.

    Please note however that there are many routines that occur during startup: even in my old rig, there is a thermo time switch that manage initial startup enrichment, fast idle, fuel accumulators replenishment, etc... At the end of the "priming" procedures all these timers are out, which makes a subsequent startup much more difficult. My procedure is consequently to prime the engine, then let it sit for an hour or so before attempting to start it actually. It's also a good opportunity to recharge the battery.

    As mentioned in a few other thread I am also experimenting a proper pre-oiling system based on a Marco Pump (TurboWerx manufacturer imho), but the "fixtures" are not as easy as it seems. Sucking the oil is a bit of a challenge in our cars hence the high cost of the Gavarino's solution (which also seems to use Marco pumps). If you want to go this route, avoid cheap pumps as these are noisy and the gear do wear fast (i.e contaminate the oil).

    Don't like so much the Moroso approach: in order to use it on a dry engine (freshly rebuilt or fully emptied), one has to find of way to refill and pressurise the accumulator. These are the situations where @wrxmike approach is the safest way to do it.
     

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