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Stradale Track Report/Watkins Glen

Discussion in '360/430' started by WCH, Jun 14, 2004.

  1. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    For whatever it's worth. Thanks to the Schattenbaum Region of the Porsche Club of America for providing an uncrowded, low key track day perfect for this kind of fooling around. All in all, the car was fantastic, but really needs slicks IMO.

    Watkins Glen, June 14, 2004

    General: started with ¾ tank pump gas 93 octane; Shell Helix Ultra oil; car completely stock; shaved Pirelli P Zero tires; ASR off (all sessions); race mode on (all sessions); no lap times taken.


    Session 1: Odometer 776, weather sunny & breezy 68 degrees, track dry. Starting tire pressures 30 psi all the way around. Pitted after 3 laps because pressures felt way off – had climbed to 36 all around. Lowered all pressures to 30 psi. 1 more lap, then drove around the paddock to cool the car.


    Session 2: Odometer 797, weather sunny & breezy 75 degrees, track temp 85 degrees. Painted tire sidewalls before session to check for rollover. Pitted after 3 laps to check pressures and temps – temp reliability questionable because I took too long to get the pyrometer working (!) – using a Longacre Memory Pyrometer (contact, not infrared):

    LF: O: 164 C: 161 I: 171
    LR: O: 150 C: 145 I: 162

    RF: O: 158 C: 158 I: 171
    RR: O: 152 C: 149 I: 163

    No tire rollover. Oil and water temps fine. Noticed significant thumping/buffeting near top of uphill esses over 120 mph. Noticed odd black/blue shiny discoloration in tire treads at outside edges.


    Session 3: Odometer 827, weather sunny & breezy 84 degrees; track temp 100 degrees. Before the session, added 1 psi to all tires except LF; added 5 gallons Sunoco 100 octane gas (gauge showed one bar past ½ full). Cold pressures: LF: 27; LR: 28; RF: 28; RR: 28. Tire temps and hot pressures taken off a mid-session hot lap, no cool down:

    LF: O: 185 C: 182 I: 190 36 psi
    LR: O: 171 C: 165 I: 192 36 psi

    RF: O: 185 C: 175 I: 204 36.5 psi
    RR: O: 169 C: 162 I: 207 36 psi

    Rolled down the passenger side window to see if that would help the buffeting, but it did not – buffeting still significant. Car feels a bit light through the last uphill ess. Top speed over 140. Lots of tire squeal, ABS activated once (T8). Noticed slight dripping from oil filler cap.


    Session 4: Odometer ___, weather sunny & breezy 86 degrees, track temp 106 degrees. Before the session, added 5 more gallons of the 100 octane and .5 psi to each tire except the LF. Drove the car hard, temps and pressures again taken after at least 4 hot laps, no cool down:

    LF: O: 192 C: 191 I: 196 37.5 psi
    LR: O: 176 C: 163 I: 191 37.5 psi

    RF: O: 168 C: 167 I: 201 38 psi
    RR: O: 173 C: 148 I: 198 37.5 psi

    Still significant buffeting up to top speed – at first I thought a tire had thrown a weight, but that did not appear to be the problem.


    Session 5: Gave someone a ride, just flogged it for a few laps, what a car ....
     
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  3. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Great data. I suppose I should be a bit more rigorous.

    Were you running the course clockwise?

    The temp readings are interesting... looks like Ferrari set the car up with some serious negative camber.
     
  4. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    Cool data – thanks a lot for posting – I also did take some tire temperature (I use the same pyrometer) but did not bother in the end because of my cool down laps

    I get the shaved Corsa’s tomorrow – I did talk to Pirelli, TireRack, Bob Woodman, some local racing shops, and contacts in the EU - no dedicated track tires – there is a lot of confusion about the PZero Corsa and PZero Corsa System – I did give up after one week of digging and went with shaving – looks like it worked for you

    Still not sure if driving around the paddock to cool the car makes sense – I assume there is little airflow through the air ducts in front of the rear wheels into the engine bay at low speed - the fans in front should do the trick for water temperature & oil

    >looks like Ferrari set the car up with some serious negative camber.
    Just this weekend I was driving behind Albert’s Stradale and was observing how much negative camber the cars has
     
  5. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Water, yes; but oil? Even a little air flow through the engine bay will make a huge difference in cooling vs. zero air flow. Plus there's the brakes, with which, due to their potential cost, I've been unwilling to take any chances.

    But I suppose I should pull out my infrared pyrometer and do some temp checks on the brakes before and after my "extra" cool-down to see what the actual temp difference is.
     
  6. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    assuming if the water temp goes down this has an impact on the oil too - I think you have to get more than 15mph to get the oil cooler working – based on observations with my dyno run and fans

    I just finished analyzing the DL1 data and I can not find the reason for one of the spins I had - I am at 1.09g lateral acceleration and 54.2mph when it goes - the run before was 1.0g and 53.0mph - can the margin be that small - I assume it must be the line I took or tires?
     
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  8. bumboola

    bumboola Formula Junior

    Mar 7, 2003
    625
    Thanks for posting, Will.

    Valuable data.
     
  9. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    Thinking about it overnight, I'm not going to make any alignment changes until I've collected some temps and pressures at another track.

    Based on the Glen info, though, I don't know how to make a case for running the P Zeros at 30 psi hot, that just seems too low.

    Yes, the Glen is run clockwise, though the last two turns taken at speed before entering the pits are left handers.

    I assume the best cool down is on track at a decent speed but with as little brake use as possible. I drove around the paddock a bit in the hope of cooling the brakes all I could and, of course, popped the engine lid open as soon as I killed the engine.

    One thought about P Zero "system." I'm going to mangle the spelling, because I'm too laxy to look up the site, but - as I recall, the Stradale mixes the "direzionale" and "assimetrico" P Zeros, using the "better grip" tire in back and the "better anti hydroplane" tire in the front. Perhaps the mix of the two types is the "system"? Wild guess.

    Hope the data helps, we need to optimize these cars. I bought the car primarily for track days, and I think it's got huge potential.
     
  10. Aircon

    Aircon Eight Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    83,717
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Don't those temperatures indicate that the pressure were definitely too low? I thought you were meant to have the highest temp on the inside, then the middle and the coolest is the outside???
     
  11. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    The margin can certainly be that small. But also consider balance. It is possible to take a corner at 1.09g and then take the same corner at only 1.0g and lose it! How? If you go in with a bit heavier braking to where more weight is on the nose, and thus less on the rear. Then as you hit that 1.0g overall, the rears are not weighted enough to do their part and the back end starts to come around.

    It is the balance of the car that separates the great drivers from the good drivers... that is how the great drivers seem to make a car perform better than it seems that it should be able to.
     
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  13. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Yeah, 30psi hot is probably too low. I am guessing, right now, that 34-35psi hot may be about right. I'm pretty confident 38-40psi hot is too high as its clear that you aren't using all the tread at that pressure... not to mention the resulting chunking.

    Note that in the above I mean "hot" (just after hot laps) guestimating the drop after cooldown laps is only 2-3psi. Running at 32psi "pretty hot" seemed about right (without doing temp measurements).

    I'll take some temp measurements next time out.
     
  14. bjc138

    bjc138 Karting

    Sep 2, 2002
    109
    DC
    Full Name:
    brian
    Excellent data Will, thanks. My tyres are now shot after 3000km and 2 track days. I'll keep an eye on the tyre pressure at my next event in July.

    'Noticed slight dripping from oil filler cap.' - The mechanic from my Ferrari dealer was at my last track day and made a point of checking the oill level and tightening the oil filler cap with as tight as he could. He mentioned that there have been reports of the oil filler cap working its way loose.

    -- Brian
     
  15. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    Discoloration in tread grooves:
     
  16. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    Minor drips at filler cap. I saw no other leaks or drips. Brian, interesting observation about your experience with the filler cap - seems to be a "watch" item during track events.

    I'll post a couple "after" tire and rotor pics tomorrow. The rotors show no visible wear. I revved the engine up to 8k, there's a lot of power up there.

    On the subject of cooling again, I think it might be a big mistake not to open the engine lid after a session - as you've no doubt noticed, a huge amount of heat is retained around the engine at shutdown.
     
  17. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    "Don't those temperatures indicate that the pressure were definitely too low?"

    Peter - I agree! Having read that Pirelli suggests running the P Zeros at 30 psi hot, I felt I already was too high in the mid 30s, and so was afraid to raise the pressures decisively to get the center temps up a bit. Of course, my Pirellis were shaved ... but I don't see why you'd run unshaved Pirellis so much lower than shaved tires.

    I'm a little puzzled by the temps, to tell the truth. The car handled fine with the hot pressures in the mid 30s, actually felt quite neutral. Watkins Glen is a track that punishes small errors harshly, lots of high speed corners with close-in walls, so I can't say I drove like a madman, but I pushed the car hard enough to slide it, got into the ABS a few times, and gingerly began to explore the limits.

    Any and all comments and criticisms most welcome, just remember mine are the musings of an amateur ....

    I'm glad to see Ferrari apparently put some camber into the alignment, though, I expected that they'd put too little in, perhaps in the interest of promoting longevity in street use.

    A final point. I haven't weighed them, but the stock wheels seem fairly substantial. I wonder whether a significant weight gain could be achieved by switching to something else ....

    Really, all my engineer wannabe blather aside, the car was brilliant, a joy.
     
  18. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    I had the same - means that the power steering oil has been overfilled - see picture I took of my first CS for dealer - dealer fixed level and it did not occur again
     
  19. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    A few post event final pics to show wear:

    Rear tires:
     
  20. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    Total at track mileage was 122, not very much, really, five sessions, but I interrupted all of them for temp/pressure readings.

    Here are the front tires:
     
  21. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    And the front rotors. No more pics, you'll have to wait for the film, book and action figures based on this most over-documented track day in history.
     
  22. damcgee

    damcgee Formula 3

    Feb 23, 2003
    1,864
    Mobile, AL
    Great thread! The "rest of us" live vicariously through you guys -- thanks for the details :)
     
  23. bumboola

    bumboola Formula Junior

    Mar 7, 2003
    625
    You're 100% correct on that, Will. The CS wheels are cast aluminum while the Challenge wheels are forged. A 19" CS wheel is quite a bit heavier than the 360's 18" wheel. I've always thought it odd that Ferrari would significantly reduce unsprung weight with the CC brakes and then add it right back on (almost) with the wheels but they look so fantastic on the car that I would never change them.
     
  24. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    True, but they have to be 19" rather than 18" to fit over the brakes... so that adds a bit of weight. And they need to be stronger than the Challenge wheels, which would be questionable for road use. However, with that said, I'm not sure the Stradale wheels are the strongest (pothole-resistant)... generally speaking, forged would give more strength with less weight.

    If I start bending the CS wheels regularly, I will consider switching to Forgeline or similar lightweight forged wheel.
     
  25. CodeRed

    CodeRed Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2003
    368
    LALA LAND
    I'm glad to see that someone is using the car for the intended urpose. Have fun!
     
  26. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Gary B.
    Anybody have any idea how the modular wheels on the 360 compare in weight to stock?

    Gary
     
  27. Chiaro_Slag

    Chiaro_Slag F1 Veteran

    Oct 31, 2003
    7,731
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    Full Name:
    Jerry
    Great pics & write up - Have you posted more pics of your 360CS yet? I think I spy TDF there. :)
     
  28. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    32psi warm as Brian stated is a good guess

    I used shaved new PZero Corsa (although I was 2.5s off last time) - (see pics)

    wear with the exception of the right front is good - Pacific Raceways is very hard on the RF tire - did some temp measuremens and they looked good (need to dig them out)

    Ray did run unshaved tires on his CS and used the same pressure, which seemed to work for him too

    Noticed thumping/buffeting Will was mentioning too - turn 1 > 140mph - must be result of shaving

    temp of brake disks after cool down lap ~ 250F

    if you want to see pics of two CS on the track: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21543
     

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