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Stuck Shock Perch and Novice Lowering Springs?

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by mdrums, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. mdrums

    mdrums Formula 3

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    Sorry if this has been discussed but I searched a few times today and can not find my answer. I had though I had seen this info somewhere here before though.

    So my new 2019 488GTB is at the dealer to get lowered 20mm and a slightly more aggressive alignment. Turns out one of the shock/coilover perches is stuck in the treads. The dealer sent the shock to a local machine shop and they got the perch to move but come to find out it will not move much. The dealer also put a claim into Ferrari for warranty on the shock as these should be adjustable.....and Ferrari comes back and says someone must have adjusted the perch wrong and messed up the treads, warranty denied. Yeah right...I got the car basically new 425 miles on it and I surely have not adjusted the spring perches myself.

    This whole thing is upsetting and not a good brand builder with me. The car has been at the dealer 2 weeks working on the stupid perch issue.

    So in order to lower the car.......I will have to install lowering springs.

    So does any know how much lower Novitec Lowering Springs lower a 488GTB at the stock perch height?
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  3. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 Veteran
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    I will say they did take much care with clamping it down :(

    Dare say either Dealer stuffed it up or the local machine shop. I dont think its actually Ferrari. Its dealer
     
  4. SECRET

    SECRET Formula Junior
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    Was it completely stuck? or it just won't go much lower than stock?
     
  5. mdrums

    mdrums Formula 3

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    This photo was at the dealer after it came off the car... The top perch will not move lower. lower locking perch but moved down.
     
  6. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran
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    I had some adjustment done to the 488 Spider rear shocks wednesday. The shop had to apply a bit of heat to loosen the collars and perches. The Ferrari shocks are notorious for galling the threads on the shock - a really poor design. My guy spent a lot of time cleaning and lubing, and then applied heat. As he told me yesterday, this is always his course of action on 458's and 488's. If your shop just put a wrench to it without any prep, it is very likely that they damaged the threads. The shocks should either be removed or the A arms loosened to make room to work.

    I can't tell you what max lowering is. I'm not lowered, I just had the rear dropped a few mm to put weight on the front. Where I run and where I track, I would be replacing rear diffuser fins like people changes underwear if I did.

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  8. mdrums

    mdrums Formula 3

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    IL Co-Piloti, they soaked in penetrating oil for a day, that didn’t work, apllied heat and sent to machine shop who got the to turn a little. Ferrari uses some real inferior parts I am learning. I miss my Porsche GT3!

    I still can not find answer to how much do Novitec Springs lower a 488 with out adjusting the perches.
     
  9. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    Some things happen for a reason so I'd count your blessings here. The stiffer Novitec springs will prove a must anyway - and a bare minimum - as even with the stock coils at stock ride height the car can bottom the front struts fully out when pushing hard through tight corners if there is any sort of mild compression the suspension has to deal with. If you lower a 488 gtb 20mm using the stock coils I think the car will become unusable for anything other than boulevard peacocking and cars and coffee toss offs. And yes sadly the 488 will never deliver like the Gt3. It may be faster and easier to overtake slow pokes but that's it. The Gt3 otoh just gets down to the business end where it all counts.
     
  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    On a typical coil over you can cut the perch and break it off. If the threads are stuffed they may not be where your coil height might eventually be and if you can get past them you are golden. Thread pitch is often metric 1.5 so standard. You might be able to source a ferrari perch or a non-ferrari perch or even have one made. It is a simple device. You can sometimes clean up the body threads to be useable or at least get past them. I have never seen OEM's to use standard spring diameters while OEM shock bodies often are often of standard diameters. OEM's always seem to use larger diameter springs. There is a huge advantage to converting to a standard spring diameter to like 60mm or 2.5" because once you use those the world opens for any length cheap springs from the best makers like eibach hyperco etc. Going to a 2.5" spring for example might also open you up to more available substitute perches.
    Do the math and see if something is available off the shelf. Almost anything is better and gives more options than OEM Ferrari at a better price point.

    https://www.hypercoils.com/perches/



    Mechanics are lazy and many try to adjust the perch under spring pressure. Proper use of a spring compressor would have likely prevented this problem or model specific knowledge like these shock bodies are soft and gall before putting a wrench on it. Performance minded people are not worried about "possible" noise as in NVH noise harness vibration that OEM are. So OEM 100% of the time set to their rideheight and preload springs and thus you get more hassles using the coils as the suspension tuning tools that they are, i.e. set it and forget it. Real performance people select spring lengths for no pressure on springs at full droop and swap different spring rates for different track conditions. This allows easy ride height adjustment at the perch without spring compressors or removal of the coil over from the car for access. A helper spring of insignificant rate, you can squeeze with your hand, might be added so that the spring does not rattle around to reducing NHV and aid in main spring locating dynamically. The smallest diameter springs are used to save weight and provide a compact package for clearance. There are a couple reasons to use or not use a helper spring. Here is a different setup strut and coilover but you can see how a helper is added to the rear coilover while the front has no helper spring.

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  11. AClark

    AClark Formula Junior
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    I’ve run into the same situation where the Strat was actually cross threaded from the factory, and Warranty was denied, as I was told it may be an adjustable strut... but there’s no reason it should actually be adjusted...

    In regards to the lowering springs, I believe it lowers it roughly 1 inch in the front and one and a half inches in the rear.

    Good Luck with your project!
     
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  13. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    #10 Shadowfax, Sep 18, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
    100% correct. Once the pressure of the coil has been unloaded - using the proper tool to compress the coil off the collar - the collar then only requires minimal force to rotate up and down the thread line to basically where you want to position it. There is a way to do a job like this properly and so many will take the easy way out, and then once the damage is done that's the end of it. This looks to be a classic case of incompetence and laziness. I'd put this straight back to where it belongs, at the dealer. Ferrari did the right thing by denying the claim. The crush from the vice would have promoted ovality and bound the thread in the collar and the witness marks stand as evidence. That and the downforce from the spring compression was recipe for disaster. No way would I ever sign off on this as a legit warranty claim. Forget it. This problem needs to be put straight back to where it belongs. It was just sheer luck they got away with the other 3.
     
  14. mdrums

    mdrums Formula 3

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    Spring compressor was used...this did not happen due to the dealer mechanic. This happened at the factory but the factory denies all warranty claims.

    I am working with the dealer now to get Novitec springs on the car. The shock in question is the right rear shock and with the Novitec kit you replace the top perch because the Novitec kit has smaller diameter helper springs.

    If they can get the top stuck perch off and the Novitec perch on that comes with the kit I will be good to go.
     
  15. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    Hopefully it works out. Re the other, it would be more likely that they reached for the spring compressor after the damage was done as the significant witness marks on the base of the strut certainly indicate not. Id say that'd be why Ferrari had declined the claim.
     
  16. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 Veteran
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    The deep scratches I noticed first up :( I find it Frustrating when someone makes a mistake/ goes wrong everyone runs to the hills :( The OP didn't make the mistake yet he will be paying for it.

    That's why tradies joke and ask double rate when you look over them. You can see that they made the mistake.
     
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  17. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    #14 Shadowfax, Sep 18, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
    Absolutely, for the simple reason had they used the spring compressor first there would have been no need to clamp the body of the shock so tightly in the vice and then force an unloaded collar to turn. Any tech with a brain in their head would have identified the collar was not going to move in the right direction and stopped there - backed the thread right off and inspected the problem area of the thread to identify the reason why it is locking up. There is no need to force the collar in such a ham fisted fashion in hope that the problem will resolve. Ferrari were within their right to deny the claim. Maybe the tech thought the Ferrari engineers came down in the last shower. The evidence speaks volumes. If I were mdrums I'd be demanding a new strut and tell em to stop the BS.
     
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  18. mdrums

    mdrums Formula 3

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    Guys I'm stuck... unless i hire a lawyer and flatbed the car into storage somewhere. I'm not made of that type of money. I asked about the marks dealer says they were there... they were not but it's a he said she said bunch of BS.

    I'm not really in a good mood or good place right now with the dealer and Ferrari. This is my 1st and last with this brand... I'm done!
     
  19. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Anyone know the diameter of the 488 shock body?

    I don't see how novotec lowering springs are going to work because your perch position is still unknown and your ride height is dependent on where the spring is on the shock body. You might get lucky. You can lower an OEM spring to the "lowering spring" length by collar adjustment which is frozen on your car. A real " lowering spring" is used on cars that have no provision in their suspension design to be adjusted like the rear of a Ford mustang GT. You can't lower the ride height without lowering springs of balance the car unless you convert to coilovers or shorter spring with adjustable perches as aftermarket parts in the stock location. A coil over suspension by design is adjustable. I hope what you are doing by lowering is for cosmetics but you called for lowering and more aggressive alignment in your 1st post. An aggressive alignment is secondary to the proper rideheight to take advantage of that new alignment. They go together. Ride height is the 1st basic when making modifications. You do that 1st. Cosmetics is not a factor for performance.
     
  20. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    Usually this is caused by someone attempting to adjust the perch either while the strut is still on the car or while there is still some residual tension from the spring. If you search some of my past postings, I have commented about this in the past.

    When I lowered my 458, I had to completely remove the coil over. Initially I thought it could be done on the car, but I think doing it via that method is really a hack move by someone too lazy to do it the proper way.

    Also, it's important to not only remove 100% of the spring tension from the perch, but also to use two spanners and turn the perch and jam nut in opposite directions, so that you aren't accidentally turning one or the other and dragging the locked nut (or perch) up or down, which will usually badly gall the threads.

    If you'd like to see the video where I show a clip of doing the job, I'm happy to post it again here or just search the old postings on this topic.

    As far as repair, you can always buy a donor coil over from ebay or a used Ferrari parts place and swap over the threaded part.

    Ray
     
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  21. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    #18 RayJohns, Sep 19, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
    I don't think it's inferior parts, so much as it's inferior service. The lock nut has to be unlocked very carefully without allowing the perch to turn whatsoever. Oil, heat, etc. aren't really a major factor here either way. It's more a function of the binding load on the threads. If you take any bolt and two nuts and jam them up, then accidentally move both as a unit down the bolt while attempting to "un-jam" them, you are going to damage the threads - it doesn't matter if it's your Ferrari coil overs or a bolt from Home Depor.

    With that said, aluminum fine threads are far more prone to damage, which is why this occurs when people try to lower cars without fully removing the coil overs. I bet if you were at the dealer, they probably attempted to lower the car without pulling the coil overs off. Sometimes you can get away with it, sometimes not. Even if they were removed and all spring load was eliminated, you still have to be super careful not to accidentally allow the perch and jam nut to rotate while married.

    If the Ferrari coil over perches were steel, then you'd provably have a little wider margin of error, but not much.

    Ray
     
  22. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    That sucks man.

    My suggestion would be just buy a damaged coil over off ebay or from a Ferrari used parts place and then swap the threaded perch over. It's just held on by a clip. My guess is it's fairly easy to swap over. Is the dealer trying to tell you that you need a whole new coil over?

    Ray
     
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  23. mdrums

    mdrums Formula 3

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    It’s the right (passenger side) rear shock.... I will have to deal more with the dealer on Monday..... the dealer claims they have done this work many times before, they claim they a.ways take the shocks out to adjust ride height. This is why I took the car to the dealer instead of my local shop who really only works on Porsche, BMW.

    I will search around and try to find the part number of a right side rear 488 shock for a 2019 car.
     
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  24. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran
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    317751
    220351
    286402
     
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  25. mdrums

    mdrums Formula 3

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    Thanks but which number is for what part?
     
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  26. mdrums

    mdrums Formula 3

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    Looks like 317751 is the shock only with perches.
     
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  27. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran
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    Shock
    Ring nut
    Spring retainer
     
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  28. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran
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    A lot of the other stuff you can reuse. All you need is the shock, retainer and nut. Spacers and everything else is should not be damaged.
     
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