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Supercharged QV Dyno results

Discussion in '308/328' started by mk e, Jul 17, 2004.

  1. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Well, I finally got the car to a dyno and spent a few hours doing some tuning. I still had some more to do, but I ran out of time (and money).

    415 rwhp@7000 and 18 psi,

    About 490 crank depending what conversion you use. Sorry the graph has mph on it and no torque or air/fuel....the guy didn't put everything on the disk like I asked it would seem....when I get the rest of the dat, I'll post it.

    The green run was first, then I added 2 degrees of timing, opened the plug gap and more fuel. The plug gap turned out to be a mistake and resulted in the missing you see in the blue and then worse in the red where I added fuel again. But it was just too hot to pull and gap them again and the extra fuel really made it break down. So I called it a day.

    On the red run the fuel/air was 12 on the first half then 12.5 on the second half, 12.5 is what I was looking for, so I need to lean it just a bit below 4000.

    I need to get back up with the plugs reset or maybe hotter coils. I'm pretty sure it wanted more timing, looking at the jump from 1 to 2&3, I think there is probably another 20 hp or so to be had. I was hoping for another 100 hp, but but the boost came up a little short of the 20-22 I wanted. I can live with it as is I guess although I do have a bigger throttle body to try....
     
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  3. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Well ok.....I ran data logs from the ECU during the runs and was just having a good hard look at them. It appears that the ECU main trigger is most likely the problem not the plugs. It looks like it misses a beat and shuts down the fuel&spark at the points the power crashed ....more work to do I guess....
     
  4. wrecktech

    wrecktech Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2004
    364
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Don't get discouraged. I am really interested in your progress. I hope you get it all figured out. 415 rwhp@7000 and 18 psi is pretty good, almost double stock. Sounds like a nice ride. Please keep us informed.
     
  5. jimangle

    jimangle Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2003
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    James
    Any chance you post a video of the car in action?
    Jim
     
  6. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Thanks. I am very happy with it, I just thought I would be able to wring a little more boost out of that blower, but I'm already spinning it just a touch over it's redline.....Of the 4 or 5 stock QVs I've seen dynosheets on, I think the highest was 197, so over double at 110%....definately a noticable increase :)
     
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  8. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Jim,
    I'm sorry but I didn't shoot one this time. I have one of the car on a mobile dyno with the old blower, it made 304@10psi (no intercooler) that day...it give you the idea anyway.

    Mark

    http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markeberhardt/MarkFerrari.mpg
     
  9. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Russ Turner
    congrats - brilliant work, simply brilliant.

    would still love to see the a/f if you ever get it. Any comments on your advance curve numbers and plug gap?

    way cool!!

    best
    rt
     
  10. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Thanks Russ. I'll get the curve sometime this week. It's kind of boring though...with EFI you get straight lines when it's right.

    I had the plug gap at .025", then upped it to .035".

    The timing was about 20 degrees on runs 2&3, 18 on run 1...my advance curve works a little differently than yours because its tided to the manifold pressure...it's really a 3d map more than a curve. Basically though, I copied the factory info for the vacuum side of the curve, then added boost retard on the on the pressure side.
     
  11. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    May 29, 2001
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    Hugh G. Rection
    Uh....one word...."WOW"! :)

    Dave
     
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  13. fivebob

    fivebob Karting

    Jan 31, 2004
    223
    Tauranga,New Zealand
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    Callum
    Nice numbers :D
    Did he give you the .drf dynojet run files? If not, then get them. You can download the runviewer from http://www.dynojet.com/downloads.shtml which should allow you to view all the data and make comparisons between runs.

    What RPM was that at, Peak torque or all the way through the boost curve?

    In my experience of forced induction engines you won't get away with much more (at those boost levels) around peak torque without running water/alcohol injection and/or high octane fuel, though you can advance it more after peak torque.

    Have you tried tuning the advance curve on a Dyno before? Usual procedure is to tune for MBT (Minimum advance for Best Torque) using a dyno capable of holding a fixed RPM while you advance the timing until the torque stops increasing, then take it back to the minimum advance that gives you the torque reading.

    BTW What's your intake air temperature like?
     
  14. Jimmy540i

    Jimmy540i Formula 3
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    Wow... very cool!
     
  15. blu328gts

    blu328gts Formula 3
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    May 26, 2004
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    Mark E,
    Those are awesome numbers! You should really consider kitting this up and offering a comprehensive package. Keep up the great work!!
    ~Rick~
     
  16. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
    That's GREAT, Mark!
    Oddly enough, very similair to my turbo'd 348! 417whp with 15lb.s boost. I bet the 308 runs like it should now! Keep up the good work. To me, it sounds like some relatively minor tuning and a bit of reinforcement here and there and you're finnally done. It's been a long road for you. I'm proud to have followed the journey!
    Jeff
     
  17. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    ok, hypothetically, if you were to offer the kit as a complete job, installed and tested for a customer....

    how many hours

    how much for parts

    how quickly to deliver

    total price...fitted....??
     
  18. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    No, it doesn't appear he did....I already downloaded the viewer and tried it in excel, there just isn't any more info there. I need to go see him this week.

    It was basically straight through the run, above 3500 rpm 18 psi = 20 degrees the way I wrote the maps. I was mostly working on the fuel thinking after it was safe, I'd move on to timing....but with it breaking down there wasn't much I could do, so I went home. I was hoping to get more timing in at least above the torque peak (5000) as you suggest....but I think your also right when you say it wouldn't be much more. On the old system 10 psi, 270+F it took 26 degrees. I have an air temp correction map for timing which is zero right now...After I find the peak power timing, I'll probably add some retard above the temp I tested at to be safe.

    75C (167F).....more fan would have helped. Out on the run on a 90F day, I see about 65C (150). I'm pumping about 10 gpm though the IC loop and I have something like 350 sqin area on the front heatchangers, so it works well as long as there is air flow....although it will never be as good as if I could use an air/air unit, but there just isn't any air flow in the engine bay to work with.
     
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Yeah, it's really more than plenty for a street car as you well now, and it doesn't blow up....I think I'm going to finish the last few tweaks and leave it the heck alone.....although I really suspect that throttle body is a 1 or 2 psi restriction... Thank you so much for the support you've always thrown in throught the ordeal....I mean project.
     
  20. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Those are hard questions. I think I did this the most difficult way possible because it was pretty. The price of a kit for a setup just like mine would depend on volume really, but I don't see how it could be less than about $15K and could easily be more with 20-40 hrs install time. The simplest package I could conceive would be with the blower mounted over the rear valve cover, stock intake converted to EFI, no intercooler, no DIS, no sequentail injection (so 300ish rwhp) and would run about $9k plus 10-20 hours install time. Upgrade to an intercooler would add about $3K, upgrade the EFI to sequentail and DIS another $1500.

    The truth is that I'm not a bussiness, this is just a hobby for me. I did it because I wanted my car faster and I could. As a bussinees, I don't think there would really ever be enough sales to bother with honestly. Even at $9k I don't see how I could sell more than 1 or maybe 2 per year. I'm more than happy to give anybody any info I have, but I don't think there will be a kit.

    If there are several people who really want something and can all agree on what it is, I could do a 1 time build I guess
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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  22. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    I don't think you could make one near as nice as yours with a consumer level of quality for anything near what someone would pay you for your expert time. Then there is the customer expectation level thing and any return liability. I could see perhaps selling the manifold (the key piece) or machine-shop drawings, but not a kit unless it was way expensive and you were doing it as a bona-fide business with customer support, as that alone would take time and resources. And, every installation is a bit different. The lure of easy bolt on horsepower is deceptive. Like someone once said: Cheap, easy, good - pick two. :)
    I can think of a couple of past FChatters asked to do custom product sales with unfortunate results as it just got too big to do well for a demanding audience.

    Just tryin' to protect my bud,
    rt
     
  23. damcgee

    damcgee Formula 3

    Feb 23, 2003
    1,864
    Mobile, AL
    I would love to see the torque curve, it seems that the horsepower is pretty linear, so I would assume that (with the exception of that one "jump" your torque curve must be fairly flat?
     
  24. jimangle

    jimangle Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2003
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    How about a picture of the car spinning it's tires in action? That's when you get everything straigtened out. I think it would be cool to see a 308 light up it's tires in 2nd and 3rd gear.
     
  25. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    I'll get it posted in the next couple days. The boost curve is very smooth and pretty flat, so the torque curve is similar to stock....although not quite as good down low and a little flatter up top because the boost curve is not perfectly flat....and I don't know what was up with the step on the blue graph...it's not there at all on the green curve and about 1/3 as big on the red one.....strange....but it not from boost coming on
    2000 rpm - 10 psi
    3000 rpm - 12.3 psi
    4000 rpm - 15psi
    5000 rpm - 15psi
    6000 rpm - 16.8 psi
    7000 rpm - 18 psi
    7500 rpm - 21 psi

    I'll get a nice graph put together in excel with everything on it in the next couple days.
     
  26. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
    21 psi?! GO BOY!!
     
  27. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Well, that's the thing with a blower, it's direct drive. It doesn't care that the engines torque curve is dropping like a rock and the engine doesn't want more air...it gets it anyway, so the boost shoots up. The good thing is that it makes the engine pull hard right to red line. The stock hp peak is 6800, I got 6900 with the old blower and now 7000 with this set up. I also have the cams timed to the euro specs, so the torque peaks at 5000, so it's a wider curve than stock.

    The dyno pulls start at 2000 rpm and it's making about 100 rwhp, that makes it 262ft-lb torque at the wheels (hp=torque X rpm/5252), or just over 300 crank....so just off idle it makes about 60% more torque than a stock qv does at it's peak of 5500....it pulls hard right from idle.
     
  28. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
    when, ( or if), you decide to sell the car, let me know.......
    ;)
     

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