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suspension recommendations

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by adesalos, Dec 1, 2003.

  1. adesalos

    adesalos Karting

    Mar 19, 2003
    222
    Texas
    Dave,
    Did you also refurbish your rear suspension?
    If so, did you replace anything on the front side of the A-arm, i.e. parts 5 to 12 on the TAV.40. I have a hard time to understand if this is a spread view of a bushing like these in the back of different stuff...
    Regards
     
  2. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    Adesalos,
    I'm in the midst of a rear suspension rebuild right now and taking pictures along the way. I will post a complete step-by-step when it is done. (Probably a couple weeks, depending on how much time I can get to sneak out to work on the car!)

    Birdman
     
  3. adesalos

    adesalos Karting

    Mar 19, 2003
    222
    Texas
    Dave,
    Why did you replace the sway bar bushings with a greasable version?
    Also you use the one listed on Energy Suspension website for a OD of 17.5mm, while the sway bars on a 308 are 18mm. Did you have any problems installing these?
    Also, did you recall the part number for your end link bushings?

    Finally just a note to be picky: the G for the energy susepnsion part number means designs only the color (Black) and not that it is graphite and less skiky when cold...
     
  4. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
  5. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    Caution, the front and rear sway bar drop links do NOT have the same size bushings. The rear sway bar rebuild, as posted by Birdman, (with a bit of help from Verrell), works just fine.
    The big end of the front drop link is right at 1.25 o.d.
    I ordered an assortment of bushings and will report on the results asap.

    regards,
    chris
     
  6. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Owner Consultant

    May 5, 2001
    6,952
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    Chrismorse,et al,
    I've contacted QA-1 directly and now have their recommended dimensions for mounting the bushings. With these dimensions & measurements of new Koni bushings, I've got the numbers I need to make bushing sets for QA-1 shocks. CAVEAT: I've got to find a way to improve productivity tho. It took me a couple of hours to turn out my 1st pass at the bushings for one shock end!! That works out to 32 hours/4-shock bushing set! I believe that to be competitive I need to get the labor down into the 2-4 hour window for a 4-shock set of bushings.

    308 SPECIFIC QA-1 SHOCKS ARE A POSSIBILITY!!!
    I also inquired about QA-1 making a custom 308 version of their fixed & adjustable front shocks for Unobtainium Supply. Specificly QA-1 models #ALN4855P-1 and DR4855P-1 with the upper spring perch lowered so the A-arms don't have to be cut out.

    Good news: They are willing to consider doing it for a price & stated a required minimum order quantity!

    Bad news: The minimum quantity they indicated is quite large, so I'm concerned that we won't be able to get together on a quantity that I'd be likely to sell in a year or two.
     
  7. spang308

    spang308 Formula Junior

    Jul 17, 2004
    887
    York, PA
    Verell,
    How many do we need?
    I'm about ready to do the suspension on my 308 and would consider ordering through you if the price is reasonable. I'm looking to use QA-1 double adjustable shocks and Hyperco springs.
    To others who have done this job before, what is the free length of the springs? I'm looking to lower my car no more than an inch, but I don't want the springs flopping around loose when the wheel is in full droop.

    Thanks,
    John
    P.S. Great pics in this thread.
     
  8. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Aug 3, 2002
    6,061
    Southeast USA
    Full Name:
    Mike Charness
    I'm also ready to do shocks, and am already consider the QA1's.
     
  9. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Owner Consultant

    May 5, 2001
    6,952
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    Which QA-1 shock model are you looking at? The PROMA STAR AL ?
     
  10. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    290
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
    Verell,
    Count me in too!!
    Tommy A
     
  11. spang308

    spang308 Formula Junior

    Jul 17, 2004
    887
    York, PA
    Verell,
    That's what I'm planning to use if I don't go all out and use Penske's or Ohlins.
    Part # HAL-DR4855B in the front with 300lb. 10" springs and HAL-5855B in the rear with 250lb. 12" springs. I'm also planning on using Energy A-arm bushings.
    In addition, I'm working on tubular adjustable sway bars with rod end adjustable drop links that I'm going to build in my uncle's fab shop. He builds racing components as well as parts for NASA and stage pieces for the recording industry when the big names go on tour, so sway bars are childs play for us. We've done many sets before. I probably won't have the first set done for a few months, but I have them drawn already and I think I have the rates figured correctly for the spring/shock combo I'm going to use.
    I have extensive experience testing road race chassis and suspension components, so I'll put it to the test when I'm done. Once I get the package fine tuned, I'll let the board know my findings.

    John
     
  12. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    Spang,

    You have the correct shock numbers, however, I'M fairly sure that the "B" at the end denotes a rod end type bearing. I strongly suspect that the id of the bearing will be 5/8 or 9/16 inch - way too big for the 12mm standard shock mount bolt.

    If you append a "P" to the 4855 or 5855, they will ship a shock with "P"oly bushings, top and bottom, with a 3/4 internal bore. They are thoughtfull enough to include two metal sleeves to enable either a 5/8 or 9/16ths mounting bolt.

    These shocks are single not double adjustable.

    I purchased 350 lb springs for the front, (10 inches long) and 300 lb rear springs .(12 inches long).

    Cost $850. from summit racing

    Since the front top shock mounting bolt also mounts the upper a arm and it has to come off to be "trimmed" a bit for clearance, you might as well as do the front bushings. the best are the black graphite impregnated polyones.

    As long as all of the front suspendion stuff is out of the way, you might as well make use of the extra room and install the stainless brake lines.

    Back to the shocks for a minute, I think it is really important to sleeve the shock mounting bolts both inside the poly bushing and on the sides, (it is roughly 1/2 inch narrower than the big old koni's. VERY IMPORTANT, it needs to be a good snug fit at the rear - if it is loose and you tighten up on the lower shock mounting bolt, it is very possible to crack the cast upright mounting ears, (very expensive mistake).

    While purchasing the shocks, I also purchased a shock collar spanner which came with a set of "torrington" bearings to ease the height adjustment, ($43.99.) I also purchased another pair of bearings for the shocks, ($25.99) This proved a significant help in cranking up the ride height.

    Which brings me to a problem I have yet to hear a solution for and that is setting the ride height properly. I am estimating that it will take 4 scales of about 1000 pound capacity each and a FLAT piece of concrete to properly set the corner weights.

    I wold be delighted to chip in and "rent" a set of scales if anyone has a set.

    hth,
    chris
     
  13. rossofiorano355

    rossofiorano355 Karting

    Dec 22, 2003
    210
    NOLA - Bham
    Full Name:
    Ron
    Verell,

    Any update on the 308 specific QA-1's?
     
  14. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Owner Consultant

    May 5, 2001
    6,952
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    Sent them eMAIL back about the 1st of the year, no response, then it sorta slipped below my horizon. They were supposed to have some more info for me about then.

    Will try again as soon as I get my ISP's email service sorted out.

    - Verell
     
  15. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,683
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    Verell,
    I'll be happy to go in on a 308-specific QA1 buy too.

    Birdman
     
  16. don_xvi

    don_xvi F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    2,920
    Outside Detroit
    Full Name:
    Don the 16th
    Any news?
     
  17. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
    Roswell, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Charles
    I just go tin my QA-1 shocks and they seem a bit soft. I have an old set of Koni's here and they take a LOT of force to pull open and recompress. The QA-1 units are relatively easy....

    I took the part numbers from here---Aln4855p and Aln5855p ordered from Summitt Racing.

    My feeling is that I should return them for the DR 4855 and DR 5855 so they can be stiffened up.

    How say ye?----anyone installed the regular units? happy?
     
  18. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Aug 3, 2002
    6,061
    Southeast USA
    Full Name:
    Mike Charness
    Aren't they adjustable so you can stiffen them up? The Varishocks I got I keep on setting 3 out of 12 for street driving. I moved them up to 5 when we were at the track, and that was plenty stiff for me. I tried them at 8 and they're almost rock hard... push on the bumper and it pretty much doesn't move.
     
  19. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
    Little Rock
    Full Name:
    David Jones
    "Aren't they adjustable so you can stiffen them up"

    Shocks handle dampning...
    Some shocks have adjustable dampning and rebound settings.

    Want stiffer?
    That is the springs function.
     
  20. don_xvi

    don_xvi F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    2,920
    Outside Detroit
    Full Name:
    Don the 16th
    First, it's impossible to evaluate a shock's damping characteristics by compressing it by hand. Damping is speed sensitive, and a road input at, say, 0.5Hz you might be inputting by hand isn't representative. Ever noticed that even a car that has really bad shocks passes the ol' "bounce the bumper a few times" test? So if you've got the same part number other people have had success with, it's time to install them.

    Secondly, "damping" works in compression and rebound. It is, however, tunable in both directions (maybe not externally on a user-adjustable shock, but that's another issue). One can certainly "stiffen" a damper, where "stiffen" is commonly used to mean "increase the force resisting compression/rebound motion".

    Finally, "dampening" refers to what one does with garden hose, "damping" is what a shock absorber does.
     
  21. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
    Little Rock
    Full Name:
    David Jones
    Your absolutely correct, I added an "N"... It''s damping.
    In my neighborhood, when we adjust shocks, we call it softer or firmer,
    where stiffer would be a spring function.

    By the way, the QA-1 shocks and Eibach springs I installed on my 308 way back when, have proven to be a great economical suspension solution.
    I have not had a problem with them since the install.
     
  22. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
    Roswell, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Charles
    My question remains----shall I return these shocks for the adjustable units---OR---- have the non-adjustable ( non- "DR") worked Ok--and is oyu have non- DR units--have you tracked the car with them?
     
  23. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Aug 3, 2002
    6,061
    Southeast USA
    Full Name:
    Mike Charness
    I would!! If you're changing from the stock Konis, I think being able to fine tune even single-adj shocks (rebound and compression set with one dial) is definitely worthwhile as part of your upgrade.
     
  24. docweed

    docweed Formula Junior

    Dec 8, 2004
    452
    Morgantown,WV
    Full Name:
    Chuck Stewart
    This is like a great thread but are all the pictures gone?????
     
  25. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine

    I agree! I'm in the beginning stages of a my 308 suspension rebuild and have one corner of the car on the bench. I'm waiting for delivery of a cheap 12 ton press from Harbor Freight to begin replacing bushings, bearing races etc.

    Dave- would it be possible to repost the photos? It would help out myself and many others in the future.

    Thanks in advance

    jwise
     

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