Testarossa - Ignition, Fuel Injection Problems - Sympathetic EFI Upgrade Pro | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Testarossa - Ignition, Fuel Injection Problems - Sympathetic EFI Upgrade Pro

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by SBDaytona, Dec 27, 2016.

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  1. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Full Name:
    Joe
    Did you ever dyno it?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  2. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    I think with out the bosch CFI the engine will have about 10 - 15% more power and also more torque, even more when right adjusted/mapped
     
  3. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    Apologies if this is telling you what you already know. In a closed loop system, data from the oxygen sensors is relayed to the engine management system. The control system will then use this information to determine if the engine is operating at the desired Air Fuel Ratio (AFR), based on the programmed tables in the tune. It then adjusts fueling as necessary. Under certain conditions this allows the engine to more accurately maintain the requested air to fuel ratio. However, if the base tune is not accurate, Closed Loop feedback will cause the system to “seek” and constantly add or subtract fuel as it tries to maintain control. This will appear as the AFR fluctuating around the desired value. This can cause degraded performance, hinder tuning efforts, and even cause harmful engine damage. Therefore Closed Loop control if employed in a performance application is generally only used for small fuel trims in particular under light throttle / cruise conditions.

    Open loop systems do not use O2 data to make changes on the fly changes. This mode is desired in operations where rapidly changing engine conditions may make closed loop control difficult or dangerous. Wide open throttle and very heavy loads are examples of such conditions. Since conditions change faster than the sensor is capable of reading and the changing the mixture, closed loop control may allow for very rich or lean conditions at precisely the moment they would be the most dangerous. Again, having an accurate and complete tune is critical in these conditions to maximize performance and engine longevity.

    Therefore there is no substitute for a good tune / fuel map in a Closed or Open Loop system and each tuner will have a preference regarding if and when to employ Closed Loop. Many performance tuners prefer not to use Closed Loop, because of the risk that the car may lean itself out under certain conditions. In any case most good performance tuners can tune a fuel map to be so close to accurate, that they will only allow closed loop O2 to modify the fuel map to a very limited extent (say max 10%) and only under non critical conditions (light throttle / cruise).

    So if you want to use the O2 sensors you can - the system is designed deal with it either way.
    Not sure if I explained that very well - hope it helps.
     
  4. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
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    Joe
    Dyyyynnnnoooo results???


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  5. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    Sorry Joe, we didn't keep the dyno sheets. We didn't do a proper before and after either as this project evolved over about a year. Will get a full set of graphs before and when we fit the next kit and pass them on.
     
  6. slippy

    slippy Rookie

    Apr 17, 2009
    8
    Hong Kong / UK
    Hi ,it seems I have an idling issue in my 1985 testarossa. I stumbled across this thread and think it may indeed help. It has been in and out of 2 shops for a year or so. After the car gets warm, the engine will idle at 2k RPM, and more recently it goes up to 3k RPM. After a blip or two it will decrease back down a little, but it seems to settle at 2k RPM. I can go up a hill in gear without any accelerator input. It can be scary to drive at times with this going on! Can someone put me in touch with sean and santino please, or give me a steer on how to proceed?
    Thanks, regards,
     
  7. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    you are a member here since more than 8 years and until not even filled out your profile or introduced yourself a little.

    if you would do so I think you have better chance to get help
     
  8. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,387
    The Cold North
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    Tom
    A high idling tr is not really that difficult to diagnose and fix. I just hope previous attempts didn't make it worse for the next guy who tries to fix it.
     
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  9. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    He could just be a fellow who looks at the sight as a resource.
     
  10. slippy

    slippy Rookie

    Apr 17, 2009
    8
    Hong Kong / UK
    Hi, I must admit that I do not log on that often unless I have a particular issues to address. Apologies if I've come across as anti-social which is unintentional!
    I like cars generally and run 2 ferraris currently: a 550 wsr and an early '85 testarossa. I run a few other marques also in the stable but enjoy Ferrari most (when everything is working). I'll have a look at the profile function later.

    It would be most helpful if Mr Bakowsky or someone could advise me on how to direct the mechanic to address this high idling (when hot) issue . It's been in and out of 2x ferrari specialist shops here and the issue still exists! (Let me know if I should start another thread)

    The car is a UK RHD spec.
     
  11. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    Tom
    Much to difficult to figure this out over the internet. I would love to help, but unfoetunatly without the car in front of me, or a chain of events..we will be basicly pissing up a rope.

    Im quite sure there are a few good shops around you who could figure this out. Look for places that service old benz, or porsche..even volkswagon cars. Ill bet they could fix it no problem. Ferrari used so many components from these cars and the basic operating principle is the same. Dont spend crazy money when ypu dont need to.
     
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  12. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,934
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    thank you for filling out your profle and also introduce yourself a little :)

    when you have been already in 2 F garages and they not found the mistake then I think it is a major problem, if they checked right?
    as tbakosky has written, go to a mercedes, porsche or VW garage who repairs older cars.

    I would start with the following:
    trottle plates completly closed
    auxiliary air valves open when cold and closed when warm
    trottle cable moving easy
    engine getting wrong air

    what rpm does the engine has when cold in idle?
    when you drive a while ( minimum 20 km ) is it still the same with the high idle between 2000 and 3000?

    is the car in hongkong or in GB?
     
  13. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
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    David A.
    Look to see if the rubber boots between the intake manifold and injection are cracked?
     
  14. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    I would simply smoke test both banks one at a time. Any vacuum leak will be very apparent..if none found..I would then check the idle valves for proper function. Take them off and throw them in the freezer, if both close, and then open up as they get warmer.
     
  15. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    idle valves? what are those?
    the auxiliary air valve or the bypass vacuum valve?
    it is a 85 car with CIS, not with electronic injection.
    the auxiliary air valve is open when cold ( the engine needs additional air and fuel ) and get closed when warm
     
  16. slippy

    slippy Rookie

    Apr 17, 2009
    8
    Hong Kong / UK
    The car is in HK . Lack of good old school mechanics here, and I have already gone to the two specialist houses here over the last few years. Thank you Mr Bakowsky (pissing up a rope ahahahah) and ago car nut and turbo joe for your input .

    All good ideas gents.
    I will try my trusty old school porsche guy who does many cars in HK . I will tell him all of the above.


    It starts at normal RPM around 1k ballpark.
    When it gets hot (say around 20 km post start) , it then will idle around 2k rpm, and on acceleration even go up to beyond 3k rpm lately.
     
  17. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    those symptoms shows of getting to much air when the cold idle is ok.
    so let check first the auxiliary air valves ( 125880 ), they are from bosch
     
  18. jgmblair

    jgmblair Formula Junior
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    May 27, 2010
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    Jeff Blair
  19. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    Sorry Joe. .you are right. I got angry at my auto correct and just wrote idle..however I'm quite sure you understand what I was getting at.
     
  20. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    I think I know what you mean :)
    but I was and still be confused what you have written:
    Take them off and throw them in the freezer, if both close, and then open up as they get warmer.
    it is exactly otherwise, so the colder the more open
     
  21. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
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    D'oh!! Boy oh boy..did I screw that one up..sorry..my bad..yes they will CLOSE!! Lol
     
  22. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    so what had you drunken? or smoked?
    must be good stuff :)
     
  23. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
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    Oh buddy...lol..I should not have been posting last night..I'm still trying to recover.
     
  24. SBDaytona

    SBDaytona Karting

    Jul 13, 2010
    69
    Hi Slippy, sorry don't get onto these forums as much as I would like. Have sent you a PM regarding the EFI Kit if you plan to go that route. Sorry for your frustration I hope you get the car sorted. They are so enjoyable when they run well. It is unfortunate that the car has been in and out of a couple of shops - it can often mask the original problem. Some excellent advice above but as it has been said a difficult problem to help sort out online. Be sure to let your trusty Porsche guy know that there is a lot more electrical communication with the fuel system on a Testa than on an equivalent Porsche. I would assume the previous shops would have checked for vacuum leaks but you never know.
    All the very best with getting it sorted. Let me know if we can help. Sean
     
  25. Ruperto

    Ruperto Rookie

    Mar 28, 2012
    21
    Manila
    Full Name:
    Ruperto
    Hi Sean,
    Please check your PM . Very interested in the EFI KIT but dont know how and where to contact you
     

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