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THE 2018 Monterey/Pebble Beach auction thread

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Timmmmmmmmmmy, May 29, 2018.

  1. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
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    Timothy Russell
    I would note that Bonhams are offering the DB4 GT Zagato 2VEV at Goodwood this weekend with gross dollar estimates from $15 - 25 million whispered about, although 2VEV is arguably more beautiful than DP215, it also isnt original to its earliest form and was instead replaced with an all new car in 1962 after Bianchi's Spa crash and more recently was restored after a road accident in the 1990s. Still the $15 - 25 million price tag would be roughly right for the only car to truly offer competition to the GTO in period and presents value at a roughly 60 - 80% discount over the great Fezza. Will be fascinating to see both offered and interesting to compare prices.

    As for the Duesy, what a car, up there with the Mercedes SSK or Alfa 2.9 and I would certainly have to price it in the same way. Interesting that every Duesenberg offered in recent times, other than the unique ex. Whittel Murphy Coupe (#2478/J-460L) which fetched a double market $10.94 million, no other example has ever topped $5 million. While some 500 Model J's were made and maybe 30 - 50 of them were supercharged SJs, just 2 SSJs with the supercharger and short wheelbase were made for Gary Cooper and Clark Gable(?). This has to be worth in the same region as the aforementioned SSK or 2.9, so figure $20 - 30 million (or even more). The interesting thing with this offer is that the Collier Collection/Revs Collection (one of the worlds top 5 auto museums) are usually buyers rather than sellers so it will be a watching brief whether any more of their fabulous collection ever gets offered.

    Otherwise, perhaps the market is changing enough, at peak or the proposed US tariffs or a combination of all three are to be blamed/ thanked but whatever the answer, this is shaping as the biggest year for the classic auto market ever.
     
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  2. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

    Mar 27, 2014
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    The Revs website says "the next generation of car collecting" with an opening date of August. I have to assume they bought something of significance and the sale of the SSJ is just making room for that? In all honesty, it kind of makes sense. Given the rest of their collection (lots of European cars/race cars/ sports cars etc.) maybe they're swapping it out for something of equal significance that fits the theme a bit better?
     
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  3. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    The Duesenberg SSJ is estimated at $10 million plus according to Forbes, who seem to handle the media for Gooding & co
     
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  4. 375+

    375+ F1 Rookie
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    I've heard the number of supercharged Duesenberg J series to be 33 but I am not an expert. Harry Yeaggy will have to leave his RM paddle at home for this one.
     
  5. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Goodings press statement ends with.....
    The sale of this car out of the Miles Collier Collections is a significant move, a sign that he is elevating his mission to focus, steadfastly, on leaving a legacy of knowledge that anchors the automobile as the most important technological artifact of our age. Proceeds from the sale will be used to support Collier’s mission to create a substantial and self-sustaining automotive knowledge legacy for future generations.
     
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  6. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Quite a few SJs have modern repro Superchargers while original Schwitzer-Cummins superchargers sell for well into the six figures and repro or original, they can be fitted to any Duesy for instant SJ status. I have read 36 original SJs but again there doesn't seem to be any great clarity around exactly how many were supercharged by Augie in period, I just know that they are as a rule a $500k added value when comparing a J to SJ with the same coachwork.
     
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  7. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Further research has revealed
    RM are estimating the Aston DP215 at $20 - 25 million (expected territory)
    Gooding are estimating the Duesenberg SSJ at $10 million + (seems low)
     
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  8. 375+

    375+ F1 Rookie
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    The SSJ should establish a record price paid at auction for a Duesenberg and for a car built by an American manufacturer.
     
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  9. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    I really hope he gets this one. There may be collectors who will appreciate it 'as much' as he would but I don't know of any who would appreciate it more.
    It would be going to a good home.

    This is shaping up to be a blockbuster year for PB auctions. Should be interesting to watch.
     
  10. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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  11. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    ^That was wonderful, thanks. I believe I'd rather have that than a 250 GTO.

    So many fabulous cars at this auction!
     
  12. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Great to see Neil Corner in this video. The profile on him and his cars in Supercar Classics is one that will always stick with me. A true enthusiast of the highest order. Wonderful car.
     
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  13. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    What didn't he own back in the day
     
  14. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
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    Big buyers want car they can race,,,even if they don’t or race replicas. This is a separate market and yes you can show your GTO at PB and race it at Le Mans or Goodwood or Laguna Seca or SPA, or do a tour etc. This is true for some prewar cars like Bugatti and Alfa Romeo and even Bentley’s ( whoever saw the Bentley Belles at Le Mans Classic will know you can be young, good looking and a lady, and race competitively a prewar Bentley on a demanding circuit!).

    The surge of Ex Formula one cars is linked to the fact that they no longer only for static collections but also can be raced at events like Monaco that allow you to drive them.

    So the market place is clearly distorted by those trends , see current interest in Group C and even LMP cars for which there will be more and more track events in the future, even if very few people are capable to drive them ( and even to start them!). Prices of 333SP were very depressed until very recently but now they will be eligible to some racing formats.

    So Duesenberg SSJ are fabulous car, they are a symbol of American Excess of the time, but very little you can do with them except showing them or keeping them in museum. I think price reflects this reality.
     
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  15. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

    Mar 27, 2014
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    Very insightful, and I do agree that as collectors and events change there will be fewer people interested in these cars, but they were just road cars after all. The roads are all still around so I can think of lots of ways to use a car like the SSJ.
     
  16. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie

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    Marc Sonnery
    Yes he was one of my favorite interviews ever, 20 years ago for his ex Pat Hoare dino F1 "Charlotte" for my Cavallino article. A fabulous day in Yorshire, he picked me up at the train station in his 550, we blasted through the moors to his manor house, did the interview, photo shoot, lunch then he drove me back in his robin's egg blue 250SWB, sideways on the twisty roads and 200kph on the Motorway:)

    He used to drive his 512M on the local roads:)

    It was a special stay in the Uk becasue I was staying at the London home of a 250GTO owner for another Cavallino article on one of his other Ferraris: one of my best few days ever.

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
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  17. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    Neil Corner also owns the magical Maserati 250F, chassis #2528, the very car Fangio drove to his win in Monaco 1957. The car is very (!!) original and was not seen in public since about 20 years. I needed this great car for an exhibition in Germany. One phone call and I got it!!! A very generous man and a true enthusiast! Thank you Neil, you made my day!!!!!
     
  18. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Neil Corner also owns or owned
    Alfa Romeo 8C2300 Touring Spider #2111013
    Alfa Romeo 8C2300 Zagato Spider #2111018
    Alfa Romeo Tipo B/P3 #5006
    Aston Martin DBR1 #DBR1/2 (Shelby/Salvadori's '59 Le Mans winner)
    Aston Martin DBR4 #DBR4/4
    Aston Martin DP215
    Auto Union D-Type #4 (the only one in public hands at the time)
    Bentley 8 Litre HJ Mulliner Saloon #YM5077
    BRM P25
    BRM P57 #P57/3
    Bugatti Type 35
    Bugatti Type 51
    Bugatti Type 54 #54-208
    Bugatti Type 55 Jean Bugatti Roadster #55-207
    Bugatti Type 57S Corsica Roadster #57-375
    Bugatti Type 57S Corsica Roadster #57-531
    Bugatti Type 57S Atalante #57-592
    Bugatti Type 59 #59-123
    Cooper T86 #F1/2/67
    ERA #R4B
    Ferrari 250 Short Wheelbase #2119GT
    Ferrari 250 Short Wheelbase #2127GT
    Ferrari 250 GTO #3413GT
    Ferrari 250 GTO #3729GT
    Ferrari 250 GTO #4115GT
    Ferrari 250 LM #6023
    Ferrari 246/V12 GP #0788/0007
    Ferrari 512M #?
    Ferrari 365GTB/4 #?
    Ford GT40 #GT112
    Ford GT40 #1014
    Jaguar D-Type #XKD504
    Jaguar E-Type Lightweight #S850668
    Lister Knobbly #BHL120
    Maserati 250F #2514
    Maserati 250F #2528
    Mercedes-Benz W125 #166365 (unique in private hands)
    Mercedes-Benz W154 #189439 (unique in private hands)
    Opel GP 1914 #?
    Sunbeam GP #2
     
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  19. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    Probably the very best collection of cars ever gathered together?
     
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  20. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    There are a few museums that are arguably better, such as the Schlumpf Collection/Musee National but definitely the greatest single privately owned collection. Its difficult to say because Corners collection was relatively fluid with cars coming and going. Arguably the McCaws, Simeone collection, Ralph Lauren and Miles Colliers Revs Collection are up there. All things equal, probably the only other single owner to own and save a similar number of gold star autos would be Bill Harrah although he had 1500+ cars, and like Corner was crazy enough to collect when these were just old cars and restorations were not affordable. Where Corner stands out is he clearly had an eye for quality rather than quantity and bravo. I do wonder whether we will see more cars from his (and others) collection come to market? Three great collections, Glaesal, Bardinon/Mas du Clos and Corners could all be offered in a similar timeframe and must surely signpost a certain generational change.
     
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  21. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie

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    Neil also had a Miura, he bought a really ratty car when they were used pimp mobiles and since it never wanted to start by itself he always parked it in indoor multi storey parking lots so he could get it rolling towards a ramp for a bump start.

    He said it handled so bad it was almost as if Lambo did not want its clients to try to go fast in the cars:)

    So no he did not keep it long.
     
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  22. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

    Mar 27, 2014
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    Which, if any of these cars are still in his collection?
     
  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #98 miurasv, Jul 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
    As it was being spoken about in this thread, at Goodwood today by Bonhams, Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato 2 VEV hammered and sold for £9 million GBP. £10,081,500 inc.

    Also John Surtees' BMW 507 sold for £3,809,500 GBP inc.
     
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  24. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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  25. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Yeah but 2VEV and 0186/R must appeal to different audiences. 0186/R was totally legit, never crashed, no great race history, looked the part. 2VEV looked great and was seemingly original in MP209 form, it must be said that it looked a little different to a Zagato, I would say better but some may not. It also might hurt that the original car had been written off and the current car had a 1990s crash described by Bonhams as being "mainly confined to the front left" looks a lot worse in photo's of it.
     

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