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The BORA

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by wbaeumer, Aug 11, 2011.

  1. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
    60,137
    Fuggetaboutitland
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    Bob
    That's pretty rich coming from someone who picked Boralogist as his internet handle ...

    Brief experiences? Hardly that. I've already documented some of my experience driving this car at high speed and that was just my forays to and from that race over a 4 year period. I've owned mine since 1987 and have put 40K miles on a car I bought with less than 3K on it.

    If you have such a superior knowledge and experience driving this car how about sharing it with us. I share a lot of stuff about my experiences with my cars in order to help other hobbyists.
    I'm not making any money doing this.

    Take another look at that video which is of horrible quality and pause it at the front end shot where you will clearly notice that the headlamp buckets are being pushed up. That's another indication of airflow issues with air having trouble flowing through that tortuous radiator path.

    I spoke with my friend (former Bora owner) again yesterday and he thinks he's finally figured out why the Bora can sometimes get air into the cooling system. Pump cavitation is one of the things he worked a lot on eliminating in his Bora. It has a straight vane impeller which is very efficient at pumping but at high rpms is likely to cause cavitation more easily.
    My friend owns a company that's been in the pump business since the early 1930s. They now design and manufacture the cooling system servicing adapters and tools for companies like Snap On and others. Recently while developing a prototype set of adapters he was attempting to draw a vacuum on a cooling system found that he was drawing in more air into the system via the radiator cap's vent. So he wonders if you run the engine up to high rpms in 1st & 2nd then perhaps the pump cavitates and pulls air into the coolant via the cap on the reservoir creating lots of bubbles? Until those bubbles separate from the coolant and exit the system efficiency is reduced.

    It's something to think about.
     
  2. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    331
    Hello---

    Have a tiny chip on my windshield which has led me to research a replacement.
    As we all know the Bora and the Merak share the same windshield, which lists on various websites for approx. $1,500-$1,750 in various currencies.

    What I did not realize until a few minutes ago is that the period De Tomaso Pantera also shares the exact same glass, green tint and all, with our cars!
    Please see:
    https://www.eurospares.co.uk/parts/maserati/bora/bodywork-lighting/bumpes-and-glasses-30329/117%20BT%2073479

    If so this becomes a relatively painless few hundred dollar proposition.

    Thoughts?

    Regards.
     
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  3. MK1044

    MK1044 F1 World Champ
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    Nov 6, 2011
    11,254
    NYC USA
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    Carmine
    Bob, I had to watch just to look for you. At 38:22 with the Bora. Great fun.
     
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  4. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
    602
    New York and Norway
    Full Name:
    Art
    Thanks B.,
    Not sure how I missed this post! Scrolling through the inventory box on the EuroSpares website had me a little confused, but I found what you're talking about at the bottom of the parts list: 695.- GBP vs 1,195.- looks like a nice savings..

    Have you gone ahead with the order and done any of the work? Let us know what you find along the way - any problems with windshield gaskets, trim, etc?
    Best wishes for the New Year,
    - Art
     
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  5. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    331
    Hi Art---

    Agreed.
    Once I realized the Pantera connection, then things got even better:

    https://www.saccrestorations.net/brands/SCCAGC.html

    Amazing!

    Wishing you a Happy & Healthy New Year as well!

    Regards.
     
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  6. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
    602
    New York and Norway
    Full Name:
    Art
  7. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    331
    Gorgeous Bora!
    Hoping that one day you would consider a full Euro bumper conversion!

    Regards.
     
  8. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
    602
    New York and Norway
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    Art
    #483 71Satisfaction, Jan 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
    Thanks B,
    I've been thinking about it - I'm of two minds that are not yet reconciled.
    1.) It would entail major downtime. It's been almost 7 years of enjoyable privileged ownership, and a major refresh is coming.. A full conversion with revised silencers, rear sheetmetal and all, would be the only satisfying way to do the job. There are myriad hidden flaws that I'd be compelled to rectify while doing the bumper work. My last restoration of a running car, took 6 years. The complexity and diligence required to do the Bora correctly implies down time that would be painful to endure.
    2.) I could keep driving it. The US bumpers go pretty well with the dark 'Cioccolato Sfumato' paint, and I don't see the bumpers during the many hours I sit in the driver's seat, so I convince myself the bumpers have no tangible impact on my psyche. Out of sight, out of mind. Plus, the car would remain unmolested. No Bora will ever be converted to US spec, so the US bumpers are not getting more abundant. Maybe I'm hoping the more you all convert to Euro bumpers, the more I'll be the last one left.
    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  9. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
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    Fuggetaboutitland
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    Bob
    I know of someone who had a damaged rubber bumper on a 75 fixed perfectly if that's what you're getting at?

    In one of the Bora threads I pointed out someone's rubber bumper adjustments which I thought looked pretty good. I beleive the car was in the UK and colored roso rubino.
    Otherwise you ARE looking at some pretty hefty frame changes in the rear to make it authentically European looking. The transaxel and exhaust mount very differently.
     
  10. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
    602
    New York and Norway
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    Art
    Good question, Bob..
    When the time comes to restore the Bora, it'll be the big decision - Euro bumpers or not. I hadn't considered whether I'd restore the US bumpers or not.. Retaining the US bumpers would reduce the workload getting me back on the road sooner. What's needed mostly is underneath - it has some old welded repairs done below the battery box and along the rocker panels that isn't right, the rear lid gusset plate too and these areas are showing some surface bubbling, so some corrosion is setting in.

    Ivan had decent results drilling and collapsing the gas shocks in his US bumper spec Bora.
    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  11. highwaybora

    highwaybora Karting

    Jun 18, 2013
    113
    SoCal
    As aforementioned... still enjoying US4.9 front bumper removal (done to be completely replaceable to stock), with added italian corner driving lights... Particularly so as it fits the original design and drawings of the Bora. However, this is a 1973 car that was burdened only with the initial simple stainless US bumper (not the later black form). Also fortunately IMHO w/o hood slots. Chacun a...
     
  12. am117au

    am117au Karting

    Apr 22, 2014
    147
    Sydney Australia
    Full Name:
    Greg G
  13. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
    516
    London UK
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    Mark Oliver
    LOVE IT!!!!

    great job.
    M
     
  14. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Bob

    Nice shot and that color just looks so elegant on the Bora. Are you happy with your cooling yet?
     
  15. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    331
    [QUOTE="staatsof, post: Are you happy with your cooling yet?[/QUOTE]

    Car sits right; looks right!
    Brilliant color.
    Impressive stuff!

    Regards.
     
  16. gcmerak

    gcmerak Formula 3

    Mar 17, 2008
    1,641
    Engine Bay, Georgia
    Full Name:
    George C.
    Hello All,

    I could be wrong about the Pantera windshield being the same as the Bora/Merak, but the windshield that is pictured for the Pantera looks nothing like Bora/Merak windshield.

    Your two Bora/Merak windshield suppliers are Sicurvetro located in Finland and Pilkington newly moved to Finland. Pilkington should run approx $1000-$1200USD unless you order in bulk then its a whole new ball game.

    On another note, If anyone is in search of a very nice all 304 stainless steel [factory design] Euro muffler for their Bora I have one for sale. The problem with the Maserati factory design is that the inboard exhaust pipes are essentially just their for looks. Most if not all of the exhaust flows to the two outboard pipes. The Merak Group has designed a y dual outlet for the larger slant cut exhaust tips for a more equalized exhaust outflow coupled with an impressive exhaust note. A Euro Bora 304 stainless muffler can be made if anyone is interested - contact me off line. Shipping weight only 20 lbs..

    Just Sayin!

    Ciao,
    George
     
  17. Foncool

    Foncool Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2011
    271
    Seriously doubt there was any collaboration on parts sharing between Maserati and DeTomaso during the development period of the Bora and Pantera. DeTomaso had just lost out to Citroen in the purchase of Maserati and blamed Alfieri. (He fired the legendary engineer the day he finally took control of Maserati). Giugario had left Ghia around the time DeTomaso purchased the company, Maserati‘s legendary test driver Bertocchi and his son left for DeTomaso.
    There was a lot of rivalry between the two companies at the time.
     
  18. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    259
    Yup. The Bora windshield is about 5.5" larger vertically. It's obvious when you look at them.
     
  19. am117au

    am117au Karting

    Apr 22, 2014
    147
    Sydney Australia
    Full Name:
    Greg G
    Thanks for the kind word on my restoration.
    I have made slow progress with the cooling problem but my time of recent has been spent renovating my daughter's house.
    Consequently the Bora has been put on the back burner.
    I have however made some progress but i'm not sure i have addressed the problem 100% not to say i will have the opportunity to do some testing next week as i am taking the car to Eastern Creek raceway which is some 50klm from home. I have been asked by a car Magazine here to do a photoshoot for their monthly magazine..
    To date i have:
    Installed a new Odyssey battery.
    Remade the radiator to a 3 core radiator
    Made a new shroud and fitted larger fans.
    Fitted a digital thermo switch which allows me to get the fans started at any temperature i desire. I currently have this set at 74 deg which brings on the fans earlier. with a 10 second interval.between both fans. During the colder months i will adjust the starting temperature to around 82 deg.
    MIE are having a new thermostat made which will open at 74 deg which i will fit when it is available.
    I have removed the scoop under the front beaver panel where the hot air expels to allow more of the hot air to escape.This made a difference as a flow meter placed directly in front of the radiator showed aprox 20% increased in air flow when the scoop was removed.
    More results to follow.
    Regards
    Greg
     
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  20. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
    60,137
    Fuggetaboutitland
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    Bob
    Greg enjoy your new beauty. When you have a chance perhaps you could take a few photos of the airflow modifications you made. More details on the radiator would be nice as well.
     
  21. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
    602
    New York and Norway
    Full Name:
    Art
    I hope you find the right combination of interventions to maximize your Bora's cooling and get it under control. Having solved my overheating problem it's easy for me to believe Alfieri's engineering is sound as long as the components are operating to specs (understanding that mine is a '75 with the revision of radiator air exiting out the hood vents).

    Your finding of 20% better airflow is encouraging. If it still overheats with the new radiator, and you feel stuck, could you share photos of your radiator front and back, fans, shrouds, under-car panels..?

    The basics of engine cooling will always remain the same:
    - A certain amount of heat is produced by the engine generating 335hp.
    - This heat is transported by a calculated (constant) volume of coolant, to the radiator.
    - The radiator has a calculated (constant) surface area to dissipate the heat.
    - The variables are airflow over the radiator, coolant flow thru the radiator, and the temperature delta between ambient air and coolant/radiator surface temperature.

    Your goals are to:
    - Maximize the efficiency of the heat transfer from engine to coolant:
    Flush the engine, radiator, and coolant transfer tubes. Use correct coolant mixture. Bleed air out of the the system diligently. Add Water Wetter. Ensure the water pump is working to spec.

    - Maximize the efficiency of the heat transfer from coolant to ambient air:
    Slowing the coolant's flow across the radiator by going to a 3-core radiator will help.
    Ensure unobstructed airflow across the maximum area of the radiator.
    Increasing fan capacity will help.
    Shrouds can be tricky, but usually they should include as much of the radiator as possible.

    These are just the very basics, and leave lots of room for nuance and counter-arguments, but all components work together.
    Wish I was there with you for this. Heck, it's only a 20 hour flight and it's time I was back in Oz for a visit. :)
    Best,
    - Art
     
  22. am117au

    am117au Karting

    Apr 22, 2014
    147
    Sydney Australia
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    Greg G
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    The digital thermal switch i used was from Davis Craig https://daviescraig.com.au/switches-controllers-fan-ewp.
    The scoop removed was directly under the radiator pipes by removing those it made a big difference. My suspicion, although this is not shared by others in the group is that the more air i can expel the more efficient the system will work.The shroud now covers the entire radiator.
    The new sensor has been placed on the exit side of radiator but i am considering relocating to the intake side of the radiator. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. am117au

    am117au Karting

    Apr 22, 2014
    147
    Sydney Australia
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    Greg G
    PS.. Art you are always welcome downunder as are the rest of you...Its a great place...
     
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  24. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    331
    On the contrary, you have hit the nail on the head!
    NOW, with your new powerful fans this is, indeed, the critical variable.

    Regards.
     
  25. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
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    Apr 22, 2006
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    PM sent

    Ivan
     

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