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The BORA

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by wbaeumer, Aug 11, 2011.

  1. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    Art
    Thanks for the photos, they appear to be very revealing!

    I wonder if Boralogist and I are thinking the same thing:
    - If that scoop was mounted where those steel pipes are pictured, below your radiator, with the opening facing forward ----> no wonder your radiator couldn't cool the engine. Mounted in that fashion, the scoop would be pressurizing the low pressure zone behind your radiator, preventing air movement.

    That scoop should be installed with the opening facing BACKWARDS to EVACUATE air from, and maximize the low pressure zone at, the back of the radiator. Let us know if my assumption how the scoop was oriented is correct.

    Cheers,
    - Art

    PS - I've enjoyed Perth and Freo for the America's Cup races. Very fun time.
     
  2. am117au

    am117au Karting

    Apr 22, 2014
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    Greg G
    Yes the scoop was mounted with the opening facing forward. Not my car but an image of another car. Image Unavailable, Please Login
    I came to the realisation that what you have commented about back pressure is correct. I was standing in front of the car with the engine running when the fans "cut in" and the expelled air was was being pushed forward. At that point i surmised that if the car was travelling at a speed the hot air would not be able to escape and that's the reason i removed the scoop. Now to your point if the scoop was facing the other way would that create a vacuum and draw the hot air out when the vehicle was travelling? however if the scoop was mounted that way it would still restrict the expelling of hot air when stationary so at this stage i will keep it removed.
    Greg
     
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  3. Froggie

    Froggie Karting

    Sep 27, 2017
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    Belgium
    Very good observation.
    I don't know the design of the Bora panels under the front (couldn't find a clear drawing in the manuals) but if the opening is indeed behind the radiator, then obviously the scoop should be installed facing backwards
     
  4. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie

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    Photo of a French Bora taken at Monthlery decades ago, you can just make out the banking far right in the distance.
     
  5. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
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  6. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    It gets even more interesting if you the later style with the vents on top as well. The original design's air flow is very tortuous. I tried an ugly as hell adjustable extraction scoop mounted on top but to no avail. I was testing at speeds from 80-130 mph. I wonder if someone digitally scanned the exterior of the car and the interior of the airflow path whether that could be loaded into a wind tunnel simulator software package and we might all benefit from subsequent analysis of "futzing" with the design a bit. Back when I was so interested in all of this you had to use an actual wind tunnel. I bet that's no longer the case?

    https://airshaper.com/pricing.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAtvPjBRDPARIsAJfZz0piWsUVVr7BOKKF5zjqOG8A3iBs8qpnaW1jOf5kec6hp2XVNJKAojcaAo_jEALw_wcB#pricing

    I hadn't thought of either an extraction scoop or inflow scoop underneath. The problem underneath is ground clearance with things like speed bumps.
     
  7. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2007
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    Although I had one of the earlier cars many years ago, I never looked to see where the air was going once it got through the opening in front of the radiator. I read somewhere that the in the earlier cars it went out of the radiator into the wheel wells. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on that account. On my current Bora, a rather late model, we did look to see where the air was going and found that there are openings on either side of the radiator that can take away flow through it. We manufactured some simple pieces of aluminum to force all of the air coming in the front to go through the radiator. Now whether this will be on any help I cannot tell you as I still don't have the car on the road yet. Other improvements to possibly produce better cooling are an upgrade to a new larger radiator, new, more powerful Spal fans and a high volume electric water pump with an electronic controller for optimum pump operation. Only time will tell if any of this makes a difference but it is hoped that it will result in some positive results.
     
  8. am117au

    am117au Karting

    Apr 22, 2014
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    Greg G
    Elliott its interesting to read that you think it was vent into the wheel wells because if i have to take any further action that is exactly what i intend to do.
    Initial thoughts are to duct from see item 2 and 3 table 38 of the parts manual. Attach 100mm ducting the the metal trim pieces and vent it through to the wheel wells with 4" fans which i will manually operate. If i go down this path i will also need to upgrade the alternator to handle the extra power usage.
    I am more than convinced the opening behind the radiator fans to expel the hot air is inadequate to handle the movement of air required. .
     
  9. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Is the car actually overheating badly now during normal driving when it's warm out and the car is heat soaked even after you upgraded the radiator and fans?
    If not I'd just enjoy the car.

    It's been too long since I had all of that rear of radiator vent track all part for me to remember everything exactly but I beleive the sides of that track consist of parts # 24 & 25 which reside ahead of the wheel wells and on one side house the receiver/drier plus some relays? I think air pushes against the outside of those from the front sides of the radiator opening? I beleive you'd have to seal that off if you were to try and route air through those and then into the wheel wells? I may have something wrong here though?
     
  10. am117au

    am117au Karting

    Apr 22, 2014
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    Bob.
    I wouldn't say its badly overheating and i am not taking the next step until i drive the car further and longer distance at higher revs. Also i have noticed since fitting the digital thermo switch which displays a current temp reading that there is a difference between the temperature displayed on the thermo switch and the inside temp gauge by about 7 deg in the higher temp range. I want to ascertain which is the correct reading. This difference of course could also be that the sender unit for the inside display is taken at the thermostat where as the digital reading is taken inline of the intake to the radiator.
    Interesting times...
     
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  11. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    I think you're started on the right path by instrumenting things. I wish I could have done that for my Bora back in the late 1980's with the equipment we have today. I did this on my Ghibli Open Cup track car for the oil cooling system as well as engine radiator so that I would know what was going on at each stage. As it was there were three of us with Boras in the SF Bay Area who would get together and compare how the cars behaved side by side under identical conditions. We had both styles of cooling systems as well. None had the USA emissions systems on them. I went a lot farther than the other two because I was using the car under far more adverse conditions.

    I don't think the MIE thermostat will do a GD thing. I calibrated mine and it was working just fine. Once it's open and you're moving at 70-80 mph the cooling system is getting enough air as long as it flows well. The fans don't matter then but when you're driving slower in stop & go traffic they're very important. The thing is with this car once you get the engine hot but not boiling for extended periods of time that rear engine compartment heat soaks and in my experience the cooling system can't bring that back down even at speed.

    On thing that did help on my Biturbo, another car with a challenged cooling system if you use the AC, was putting in a new thermo switch for the fans so that fans came on earlier and stayed on longer afterwards. On that cat that's be simple change and a huge improvement as it's best to get those turbos cooled down with lots of air flow after you turn it off.

    So maybe not getting your Bora too hot in the first place will be your best approach. That wasn't really possible for me when I was driving the car at high speeds/loads in the summer.

    Patience and best of luck Greg. Mostly just enjoy the car since it doesn't seem to be giving you real grief.
     
  12. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
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    Glad you are leaving the bottom scoop off. Maximize the airflow. Yes, give it a good drive and see how the car behaves. If that configuration works, I would try it again with the scoop installed 'backwards' just to know the resulting difference.

    This is the approach I would continue. Make a few incremental changes and test the real-world results. That is the "data" you want. Chasing 7 degrees of numerical data difference is IMHO not a useful investment of time for the reasons you mention. I agree with Bob, the lower temperature t'stat will have doubtful effect - the t'stat won't change the efficiency of the cooling system, only the trigger point.

    Now, ask yourself, what are your goals for "real world" results? What engine temperatures?

    Here is how mine behaves for comparison:
    - On a day with 85F or lower outside air temp, I can heat mine up with repeated hard or uphill accelerations, push it to 110C near overheating, then ease off on the engine by driving it with low demand, level driving, at 40-50mph, and it'll cool down to 85C in 5-10 minutes..
    - On a 90F day, driving 75-80mhp on the highway, it can heat itself up to 95F and stay there. It's never overheated, but with my Bora's history of overheating, I feel it's still a tricky situation - once my engine gets hot on a hot day, it's hard to get it down to 80-85F with durability. It tends to stay high, around 95F. Then I try to be gentle on the throttle, get where I'm going, and park it in the shade with the rear cover open to shed the heat.
    - Highway driving on a day cooler than 90F, if the engine temp rises a bit, I discovered it will actually cool down once I get it above 120mph.

    (I also listed the successful overheating interventions done to my Bora and the resulting operating temperatures in post #454 a couple pages back).

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  13. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

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  14. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie
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  15. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
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    I just returned from a month long trip to Australia and New Zealand where I had the pleasure of meeting up with Greg in Sydney and personally seeing his green Bora. What a car! I've seen many Boras but never one with this level of restoration.

    Anybody that knows the Bora knows that this is not an easy car to do a "nuts and bolts" restoration. It is good to see people dedicating the time and passion to bring these cars up to the level they deserve .... well done!

    Ivan

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  16. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

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    Great community-building effort, Ivan! Were you or Greg able to solve his Bora's overheating issue?
    - Art
     
  17. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
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    Didn't have my tools to do a block test and check the head gaskets (just kidding!). Actually, Greg has some good ideas that he will be testing to improve air flow through the radiator. I'm looking forward to his results as this could benefits all of us.

    Greg: a test to make sure there are no combustion gases in the cooling system would be a simple, yet worthwhile, test to do and eliminate that as the cause. You should be able to get a test kit at most parts stores.

    This is what they look like: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Block-Tester-combustion-leak-head-gasket-test-incl-fluid-BT500-27145-560000/113602989273?epid=1391131595&hash=item1a73440cd9:g:hQYAAOSw3h1ZVJC4&frcectupt=true


    Ivan
     
  18. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Yeah but they don't always work. Those never worked on my Bora before I replaced the head gaskets. Better to use a smog machine.
     
  19. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
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    I do not understand why it would not work on your Bora. The test fluid changes color if it detects hydrocarbons in the coolant's gases ... very simple concept. Perhaps the test fluid you were using was old and expired.

    On a Bora, due to the location of the expansion tank, it will take some rigging to properly get the coolant gases to pass through the test fluid.

    Ivan
     
  20. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Ivan it just never did but the smog machine found it. My Bora sat in museum for a number of years before I got it. I never had any coolant out of the tailpipe or steam either. I've had this happen on three cars now and the chemical test doesn't find squat. Under heavy loads the combustion gases pressurize the cooling system. You don't boil over but you lose coolant out of the overflow hose. I lost a radiator in my high mileage Suburban to this. It pressurizes too fast and busts the radiator. That engine has been running just fine with this issue for 8 years like this. I use a non pressurized cooling system on that vehicle. It's not worth the expense to rebuild the engine. It just keeps running and running ... It's a gladiator! LOL

    Several mechanics suggested the smog sniffer to me many years ago. But not many even have such equipment anymore.
     
  21. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
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    Interesting. By "smog machine" do you refer to the type used for emission testing? Please explain how this works ... I'm just trying to learn.

    Ivan
     
  22. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes exactly. You open the reservoir put the sniffer in and if needed rev the engine. When I first got my Bora I wasn't able to eliminate this by re-torquing the heads so that's when I decided t pull everything from the engine compartment and make all of my improvements. The heat from air pump and thermal reactors had a devastating effect on a lot of stuff. That system never worked. When they tell you not to operate the vehicle above 4,000 ft elevation BELIEVE IT! I doubt anyone is using this system at this point though. I thought I had to have it intact for California but on my way home I had to cut the belt to the pump as I went over Berthoud pass leaving Denver. I got around the regs in California back then. Can't do that now though. Our Boras can go back to California :(
     
  23. am117au

    am117au Karting

    Apr 22, 2014
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    Ivan.
    It was a pleasure meeting you and your wife and spending some time together.
    Thank you for the kind words on the restoration of my Bora and it is especially significant coming from yourself.
    No further attempts regarding the overheating as the weather has now cooled down for the autumn and winter months but i will report back later in the year.
    In the mean time i will try and get it out for a couple of runs knowing that i shouldn't have any over heating problems.
    I would be disappointed if i have a failed head gasket as the motor went through a total rebuilt not that i will discount the possibility .
    Greg
     
  24. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    362
    Check the compression.
    Check the head gaskets.

    When I wrote a long time ago that your real journey begins after your restoration finishes, I was not trying to be another clinically depressed ******!

    This is what this journey is like!
    BUT---the result is nothing short of Nirvana!

    Hang in there!

    Very much look forward to meeting you and your Bora somewhere in Europe soon!

    Regards.
     

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