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Discussion in 'Maserati' started by wbaeumer, Aug 11, 2011.

  1. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    395
  2. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    395
    PS---Before somebody points it out!
    Picture taken at install in workshop---rear hatch Not closed!!!
     
  3. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    272
    VCM #100 has a detailed article about the conversion.
     
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  4. Jetpepper

    Jetpepper Rookie

    Jun 7, 2014
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    Jim
    Thanks for the info. I’m ordering the euro headers and exhaust and will in fact then weld on the ansa tips. The silencers were already ditched. Art, the euro rear valence was not available so I am having a metal fabricator make it for me. He did not think it would be difficult. Jim.
     
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  5. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
    673
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    Art
    Agreed. I'd not find it surprising if these fins are a one-off intervention. We're only seeing these fins on a single Bora, which is late-build and hood-vented.

    Perhaps it helps approaching this philosophically: Are we holding the Bora to the intended standard? Mine cools itself well, but Greg's and a lot of other Boras are overheating.

    Do we know whether these high power GT cars were designed with the expectation they'd be sitting, idling long in slow, hot, city traffic? I wouldn't be surprised if Alfieri gave that particular problem 10 minutes of thought: Calculated his design could handle some [undetermined amount of] "slow, hot, city traffic" with the thermoswitch fans, figured the driver will get underway soon enough, and called it a day. The Khamsin had cooling issues too, and I think it's significant my Bora cools itself better at 3 digit speeds than 2 digits speeds. This was 1969. Think of the standards of design back then. In as high esteem as I hold Alfieri's skills, no cars had all their bugs completely engineered out and Maserati was probably worse off than most when it came to development money, Citroen notwithstanding. A buyer had to live with many more gremlins in the 70's than we do today.

    So, if a Bora owner isn't happy with that standard, check that the systems are good & proper (and this is speaking more directly to Greg:) then it's time to move on. At that point there is little reason to delay installing improved cooling capacity with aluminum radiators, fans, proper airflow management, whatnot..

    No worries Bob - and thanks for the detailed response.
    As you probably recall from prior posts of mine, there is no chance I will be converting my Bora to Euro spec. But your remarks are spot-on and clarify the conversion is a lot more than ordering parts from MIE.

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  6. 71Satisfaction

    71Satisfaction Formula Junior

    Jul 15, 2012
    673
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    Art
    #631 71Satisfaction, Jul 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
    As Bob points out, just have a good look at the rear framework to confirm your exhaust components can be routed without conflict. The Euro headers were a direct bolt-in on mine, after a little 'persuasion' with a mallet to clear a chassis frame member.

    Here is a useful thread on Bora Exhaust systems..
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/bora-exhaust.487299/#post-143932366

    Cheers,
    - Art
     
  7. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    272
    Hi Jim. Did you use the original style rear transmission cover, and if so, where did you find it? I haven't gotten much response from RBT, not that I have been very persistent.

    Thanks, Larry
     
  8. Jetpepper

    Jetpepper Rookie

    Jun 7, 2014
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    Jim
    Thanks Art. Very helpful. Larry, it does still have the original tranny cover. On another note. Does anyone know what the original carpet looks like. The above photo is what is in mine. Also, is the interior carpet and the engine compartment/front boot carpet supposed to match? Thanks. Jim
     
  9. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
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    Fuggetaboutitland
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    Bob
    Depends on the MY and how it was ordered. I would contact the factory about your specific car. Mine has very different style of interior carpeting. My hatch cover and side pieces natch my trunk material.
     
  10. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
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    Apr 22, 2006
    2,288
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    The Car Nut
    I suggest you take a look at the Bora - Guide to Authenticity as there are detailed photos of an original carpet and trunk/hatch cover material. Just be aware that Maserati used different carpets material therefore the one in the Guide is just one example of a known original.

    The Guide can be found at: http://thecarnut.com/authenticityguides.html

    Ivan
     
  11. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior
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    Oct 9, 2007
    309
    Grayslake, Illinis
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    Elliot M. Siegel
    Just a note and I don’t have access to the Bible on the Bora but there were two ways the transmission was supported. Early cars had the crossbar under the transmission while later cars had it over. Maybe the factory found that the engine subframe was bending with the under mounted support. Who knows but my car, #1000 has the bat over. I have made a couple off new over the support bar end pieces for my own engines. I suppose that the shop that made mine could make more if anyone so desires.
     
  12. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
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    Bob
    I've always thought the change was due to the requirements in changes made to the rear frame in order to support the much more robust albeit less attractive bigger rubber covered bumpers? That also forced changes in exhaust routing and rear muffler design.
     
  13. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    395
    Interesting to report that my 1972 also has the same exact indentation!
    If, as some of you guys think, this design has nothing to do with the cooling fins, then, what would have been the point of going to all the trouble to create this space, coincidentally, on the 'hot' line where the fins would be the most effective???

    Regards.
     
  14. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior
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    Oct 9, 2007
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    Grayslake, Illinis
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    Elliot M. Siegel
    I'm not sure the changes to how the transmission is mounted had to do with the federal rear bump as the bumper shocks that hold the federal bumpers where housed in boxes that attached to the frame rails and not to the engine subframe or cradle that housed the engine and transmission.
     
  15. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    272
    My understanding is that the laws instituted at the time required a standard bumper height of 16-20 inches above ground. That unfortunately was exactly where the Bora grille and exhaust system were mounted. Putting the bumper there required moving the exhaust system down by about 8 inches, which in turn caused the transverse muffler to interfere with the existing transmission mount, which is formed by a semicircular bracket integrated with the rear transmission cover plus a cap. Moving the mount up 8" to available space meant adding a cast iron extension bracket, some subframe additions to support it, and milling off most of the original cover bracket. That's why the VCM article most mention I've seen uses the easy fix of replacing the cover with an unmodified unit. They're not that easy to find, though - the highest volume application of the transmission was the Pantera version and it uses a different rear cover.
    My car was one with the half-way house conversion Bob described above. I have no time to play with my toys these days, but I have slowly finished the bumper mounts and side marker fills. It already looks much better with the bumper where it was meant to go, but I still need to finish up the transmission mount and exhaust system details. I was lucky enough to find a full Euro pattern exhaust system and the P.O had bought the full rear kit with valance and grille, so it's just the custom stuff I need. Good thing, considering my glacial pace! Image Unavailable, Please Login
    The picture shows the mount where it should go - you can see how much material is missing from the cover. I guess I was lucky - the triangular subframe brackets for the raised mount were bolt-on on my car. I gather this is unusual if not unique. Most I've seen are welded.
     
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  16. Jetpepper

    Jetpepper Rookie

    Jun 7, 2014
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    Jim
    Thanks Ivan. Very helpful indeed.
    Jim
     
  17. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
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    Apr 22, 2006
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    The Car Nut
    I am considering upgrading the fans on my Bora, which still has the originals. Is there a fan that fits the existing shroud? Perhaps I can take an 11 inch Spal fan, remove the plastic cage and somehow fit it. Spal makes a low, medium and high profile 11"l fan. The high profile fan pulls a healthy 1390 CFM. It requires 12.5 amps while the original Bosch fans pull 4.5 amps each. Although I could upgrade the alternator I doubt the wiring hardness was designed to take that much load. Ideally I would like to stay with the original alternator.

    My car is not overheating and I try to avoid situations where I can get stuck in traffic for a long time, therefore I am not looking at something radical as replacing everything ..... radiator, shroud, fans, alternator, relays, etc. What have others done?

    Ivan

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  18. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    395
    Hello---

    At a minimum have a custom shroud made for your new Spals and upgrade to a Bosch 100 A alternator!
    Asking for headaches, otherwise.

    Regards.
     
  19. thecarnut

    thecarnut Formula 3
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    Apr 22, 2006
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    These Bosch fans were used by Maserati since at least 1969. It is hard for me to believe that over the last 50 years fan technology has not advanced to the point that for the same amount of power a fan cannot move more air (CFM). You are correct that the 100 amp alternator can supply the extra amperage but that does not mean that the Bora's wiring harness can handle it, especially a harness that is now over 40 years old. I could rewire the fan section of the harness but I will be slowly modifying a very original Bora. Unless I can come up with fans that draws a similar amount of power, perhaps the best solution is to take the original fans apart, clean and lubricate, and put it all back together.

    Ivan
     
  20. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    395
    Hi Ivan---

    I fully understand your sensitivities---and mostly agree with them as well!

    All I can do is to share my own experiences, namely, that my 1972 Bora harness etc has coped with this set-up---with zero problems---for several years now, in a very hot climate.

    As you may recall the original Bora fans are also used by period Mercedes cars. Scott's old Parts Interchange List should have the pertinent Merc part numbers.

    New, original fans may suit your needs better.

    Let us know what you decide.

    Regards.
     
  21. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    395
    My memory did not fail me:
    Radiator fan motor 75618 6 20 Bosch 0130 701 005

    You have only yourself to thank for having preserved all this on your incredible website!

    Regards.
     
  22. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    395
    In case somebody had missed what a well driven Bora can do:



    Enjoy!
     
  23. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    395
    PS---It can also be driven on public roads:



    B.
     
  24. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2006
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    Marc Sonnery
    #650 Nembo1777, Jul 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
    Good morning Boralogist, all,

    The two videos are of my friend Bernard G.'s Boras in western France, they are two different cars. The matt black modified Group 4 evocation is a very early car, 100 kilos (200Lbs) lighter than the real group 4's, very impressive work by his top level workshop and one of only two seriously executed Gr4 evocations in the world along with the red one in Stockholm made by my friend Johan H (which, with much weight being shed and a very high level engine tune up, accelerates like a Diablo (he measured it).

    The video on the road is done with a plain silver Bora Bernard also owns, the other one could not possibly be driven legally on the road.

    He can certainly drive. I had a ride in his Granturismo Trofeo with him June 2nd at 500 Ferraris against cancer in central France and thanks to the slicks, 400 kilos less, proper brakes suspension it felt like a far more nimble car.

    Speaking of Boras here is an amusing sight I saw at McGraths in the UK April 24: a Bora with a baby seat next to the driver:)! To be clear this is in the UK where cars are normally right hand drive but this is a left hand drive car registered in the UK.

    Now that baby will either be traumatized or grow into an F1 superstar;-)

    Since I'm at it I might as well post the second Bora that was there a fly yellow one being fully redone, the last shot shows the master himself, Andy Heywood who is not only as good a tech as you'll find out there but who can write very good articles too, all too rare that someone combines both abilities.

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