The BORA | Page 42 | FerrariChat

The BORA

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by wbaeumer, Aug 11, 2011.

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  1. Longstone Tyres

    Longstone Tyres Formula 3
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    Hi

    I love that car sticker and the manuals. Thank you.

    The fitment guide i have for the wide range of cars is from Michelin. the second one, i think i stumbled accross on here. (i can't actually rember)

    This one is a genuine Michelin fitment guide printed for the UK in 1978. That pretty clearly states 205 front

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    This one is good.

    This is Dunlop again again 1978, quite clearly stating 205/70 front from November 1973.

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    However as a contradictory argument these are from a 1977 insurance book, which if i'm completely honest is not that reliable and often quite confusing, while at the same time being rather cool with the data it has in it. thought you might like to see it.

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    I don't really have an angle other than wanting my web site to be accurate.

    I think the XWX and Cinturato CN12 are both great tyres. i think you will be happy with both. I think CN12 might be more comfortable, and better in the wet. But if i was going to do long high speed jouneys on hot Californian motorways i would want XWX,

    I would also be interested in Pirellis new production of the Cinturato P5 https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/pirelli-collezione/p5.html price is great, and they were made to improve the Jaguar XJ range in the late 1970s.

    fact is with the P5, CN12 and XWX you are spoilt for choice. there isn't anything else you would consider though. but who needs it.

    The Cinturato is distributed by Lucas classic tires in the States.

    I wouldn't go for the P4000 Pirelli. I'm not saying it was a bad tyre, but not so suited to your cars, a more modern carcass. It was fitted to very late Jaguar XJ series 3 cars, but they did do some suspension adjustments to compensate the different tyre structure. I had them on an XJ12 HE and didn't really like them. I was going to fit XWX then i sold the car and bought this instead. quite a contrast.

     
  2. ralt72

    ralt72 Rookie

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  3. ANF289

    ANF289 Rookie

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    #1028 ANF289, Jul 15, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
    [QUOTE="By law, USA cars need to have a decal that specifies tire size and pressure. This photo is from a 1978 US Bora and as you can see it was fitted with 215/70 VR 15 all around. I do not believe Euro cars had a similar decal. We need someone with an early Euro Bora, that perhaps has a different user manual, to provide input.

    Ivan
    View attachment 3173192 [/QUOTE]

    From a very early Euro 72 Bora:
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    But, the car's owner's manual states 215/70 VR 15
     
  4. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    What actually matters is what size tires the cars were delivered with. A 205 in the rear would put the speedometer/odometer out of calibration unless Maserati fitted those cars with a different speedo drive in the ZF transaxel or different speedo and I seriously doubt Maserati did that. But maybe they fit them with 205s up front. I have 235 60 15 up front, have no issues with precise steering and appreciate the bigger contact patch when pushing the car hard. I bet the 205 spec is just a documentation annomoly and that most came with 215s all around. That makes the spae tire suitable for all 4 corners as well.
    From a very early Euro 72 Bora:
    View attachment 3173988
    But, the car's owner's manual states 215/70 VR 15[/QUOTE]
     
  5. Longstone Tyres

    Longstone Tyres Formula 3
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    do you know what year was that manual?

    and what country?
     
  6. ralt72

    ralt72 Rookie

    Dec 4, 2020
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    The car is officially listed as a 1977, though it was completed in 1978. It’s a USA car, the third from last of Bora production. (Fitted with XWX’s all around, all 215/70).
     
  7. Longstone Tyres

    Longstone Tyres Formula 3
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    From a very early Euro 72 Bora:
    View attachment 3173988
    But, the car's owner's manual states 215/70 VR 15[/QUOTE]

    Oh no that makes it worse.

    the evidence was saying early cars 215 front and rear.

    and

    maybe later cars 215 still on the rear and go down on the front to make the handling better with a 205 on the front.

    However what that does is completely contradict everything and says early cars 205 all round. WTF. dont you just love Maserati?
     
  8. Longstone Tyres

    Longstone Tyres Formula 3
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    Hmm it won't handle very nicely on 235/60R15. far too modern. and my guess is it is a Pirelli P600. ie a carcass designed to be fitted to the late XJS. it will be nicer with a 205 or 215 either XWX or CN12. its not just the size, it is the carcass design. you are in for a treat when you fit the good stuff.
     
  9. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Brings to mind the old Pirelli ad with athlete Carl Lewis running in...high heels:) Sooo important to have the right tires. I drove a bunch of Classic Rollses in the early 2000's in Florida, mainly Silver Clouds and the crossply tires they had were sooo scary: you feel you have four punctures! I was fantasizing about putting them on Michelins but I don't think the owner would have been happy with my idea:)
     
  10. thecarnut

    thecarnut F1 Rookie
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    For what it worth, I just ordered eight 215x15 CN12s. Four for a Khamsin and four for the Kyalami. It rains a lot in the southeast of the USA, plus we have many windy roads, making wet handling important. In the past I've been using XWX but they were out of stock so I'll give these a try.

    Ivan
     
  11. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    How would you know that?
    Have you tried it on a Bora?

    Ive tried plenty of different tpes of tires on my Bora and the more modern XGT & Gatorback tires were both terrific.

    Look ... I think your company provides a great service by offering these reproduction tires for those who want an original tire because of the look or for show and at this point AFAIK its hard to find the sizes I mentioned except in racing tires and its not like those are any cheaper but ... Lets not pretend that they didn't perform well. They were were splendid tires and a huge improvement. Which is why so many of my fellow Bora owners switched to them at that time. It would be nice if Michelin decided to make those available again. Here's hoping.

     
  12. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
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    Look; horses for courses!
    As I said, love the CN12s on the Bora.
    However, the Khamsin begs for a much larger contact patch/something less archaic and is very happy on her P600s.
     
  13. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    + a million.

    Tire discussions are sort of like belt change intervals and coolant/oil type discussions.
     
  14. 308nut

    308nut Formula 3
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    Anyone know where there may be a rear grill laying around.


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  15. am117au

    am117au Karting

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    Collecting Cars Auction
    1972 Bora
    Sold 89500 UK pounds
     
  16. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
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    Right year. Euro. Pretty colors. Good provenance.

    After a bare metal respray plus 20k for various issues---call it 50k---
    140k for a gorgeous investment quality Bora.

    Somebody got a great deal.
    Hope she shows up here!
     
  17. Longstone Tyres

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    I did exactly that. I have a series 1 Shadow and i fitted it with period Michelin Asymetric tyres, XVS a member of the XAS family. designed to make the Citroen DS driveable on motorways.



    here it is doing 110 mph



    Now this is some extreme nerding. In that James B ond film with Grace Jones in it, if you remeber when they had killed Steed, they then tried to Drown James Bond in the Silver Cloud and he got out and kept himself alive by breathing out of the tyre, well it turns out it was a Michelin tyres (possibly by accident, or maybe they paid a load of money for it). Now the anoraks among us would have seen that and said to themselves, as i did:-

    "Hang on a minute; that is a Michelin XWX. the tallest one of those that they made was the 225/70R15 XWX, which was fitted to Berlinetta Boxer Ferrari rear tyre. A Silver Cloud should fit an 820-15 crossply or the radial tyres 235/75R15 is the closest radial, and what we fit to a cloud! A 225/70R15 XWX is 2 inches too small for a Silver Ghost. Cubby Brockley should have rung Longstone Tyre up. We could have dramatically improved the film."

    It is reasonable to assume that there are some people out there that are a bit less concerned about that sort of thing than me. I was also beside myself with anguish when our Prince drove his fathers DB6 to his wedding. On close inspection i noticed he was driving on an H rated Avon! At that time Aston Martin used Pirelli as there radial and Pirelli were making the proper V rated CN72 205VR15 tyre that was fitted to 500 Superfast, 330 GT 2+2, the first Muira etc. Aston Martin offered it as their radial tyre for the DB6 MK2 and the DBS! and there was our prince dawdling up the Mall on an inappropriatly speed rated tyre! Again should have contacted Longstone we could have kept our nation safe.

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  18. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Yes that James Bond film was "A view to a kill" and it had the stunning Tanya Roberts in it, a great scene with her and 007 was filmed at Chantilly and I watched that scene on Youtube standing in the exact spot with some friends during the Concours a few years ago.
    I remember the tire breathing scene but can't say I pad attention to what it looked like!

    So your silver Shadow has Citroën hydraulics like they all do (some may not know that Rolls used them from the 60's to the 90's quite a accolade for Citroën) AND DS tyres, very nice:)
     
  19. italiancars

    italiancars F1 Rookie

    Apr 18, 2004
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    I just picked up a set of 215 XWXs for Khamsin #1226. In the 80s everyone was switching to 60 series tires on their 70s Maseratis, Ferraris, Lamborghinis etc. in search of a more modern tire with more grip. I was running Yokohama A008 which has a massive amount of grip, actually too much for the Khamsin in the corners, with sidewalls that weren’t stiff enough.
     
  20. Longstone Tyres

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    Surely if the Khamsin would have been better with a 60% profile tyre Maserati would have fitted it?
     
  21. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    But there were no capable 60s series tires when these Maseratis were manufactured. By the late 1980s that was no longer the case.

    People didn't switch to the higher performance tires for no reason back then. We weren't idiots, we switced to Michelin' s then superior product when fitment was possible. Some even had custom wheels made as those 60 series performance tires went out of production.

    Now the focus is on originalty and not superior handling with a better ride.
     
  22. Longstone Tyres

    Longstone Tyres Formula 3
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    Oo ther is quite a bit to go at here.

    I'm sorry. you really should not post that. It is just not true.
    1/ a 60% profile tyre does not give a smoother ride than a 70% profile tyre. it just doesn't. taller side walls absorb more shocks of the road and rounded side walls absorb more shocks. The combination of the taller side wall and the rounded side wall just do give a smoother ride.
    2/ a lower profile wide tyre, does not give better handling. the better suited rounded side wall of the XWX gives better handling. I think what you mean is that the squarer shoulder 60% profile gave more grip for straight line braking and acceleration, not so good in the corners. less wheel spin and short straightline stopping distances. However that is a far cry from better handling.

    If a 60% profile tyre would have been better on a Bora, do you not think Maserati would have fitted it? Pirelli were making 60 profile CN36 tyres in 1973. the P7 came out in 74, and Michelin were doing TRX in the 70s.


    OK this isn't quite as simple as it sounds.

    Lamborghini Espada Tyres (longstonetyres.co.uk)

    the series 1 & series 2 Espada fitted 205VR15 Pirelli Cinturato CN72. At the time that was the widest highest specification tyre available, which is why it was fitted to most of the worlds best cars from 1964 untill about 1968 when low profile tyres were invented. Beetween 68 and 72 car manufacturers started to modify their chassis design to taker advantage of the new tyre technology. The take up of this new technology didn't happen over night. the set up of a car benefits from being finely tuned to take advantage of such a massive change in the set up of a car. The Espada was ready for low porofile tyres with the series 3 in 1972.

    The 205VR15 CN72 will give a better ride and handle more progressively than any 215/70VR15 tyre. However, when you have the wider wheels and the lower overall diameter of the 215/70R15 tyre, that will give the tyre slightly more stability which will give improved direrctional stability at high cruising speeds, better braking and less wheel spin. And importantly, because they used the Pirelli Cinturato CN12 tyres, or the XWX it did a pretty good job of maintaining progressive handling that you only get with tyres with the correct carcass structure for that period of chassis design. This will be diminished by fitting something more modern with squarer shoulders to the carcass.

    However the real crux of the matter is that when they moved to a 215/70VR15 Cinturato CN12 with the series 3 Espada they had powersteering. Its a very different thing.
     
  23. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    I' m going to remind you that we're taling about a very specific car two types of tires here. I have had a lot of actual real world experience with tire fitment back then on this car both road & track.

    But before we go any further with I would request that postpnoe such a lenghty discussion. As you may be able to detect from my posts my ability to type is rather limited. This is because currently I am flat on my back recovering from a broken leg and can only use my phone with a stylus to type. It's extremely tedious. So ... shall we pick this up again in about 4-6 weeks, perhaps even sooner?
     
  24. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
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    Maserati Bora

    1974 Maserati SOLD $105,335 USD
    Bora 4.7 EST. PRICE $88.45K-$117.93K USD
    EXTERIOR Red
    ARTCURIAL MOTORCARS
    INTERIOR Black
    Lot 157 Monaco
    CHASSIS Nº AM117*324
    July 19, 2021 12:05PM (EST)
     

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