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The charges against the Teams

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by Anthony_Ferrari, Jun 21, 2005.

  1. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    2,187
    Sheffield, UK
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    Anthony Currie
    Here is the letter the FIA have sent to the Michelin shod teams and Michelin:
    There is speculation that the Teams and Michelin may have to pay for refunds for all the people who attended the race. Sounds like a good idea to me.
     
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  3. TCT

    TCT Formula Junior

    Mar 9, 2004
    862
    USA
    Good. Give them a BIG dose of what all the fans went though.
     
  4. robert biscan

    robert biscan F1 Rookie

    I hope they do. It was just wrong.
     
  5. tuttebenne

    tuttebenne F1 Rookie

    Mar 26, 2003
    3,005
    Bay Shore, NY
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    Andy
    The seven Michelin shod teams should be responsible for the Saturday night hotel and Sunday race tickets for all receipt holding fans who attended. Any other expenses would be unjustified. If someone purchased paddock passes then they used them and weren't denied anything. Those who flew to Indy for the event saw four practices, qualifying and the support races they were entitled to. The race on Sunday was the only thing the fans were denied. I'm not saying this wasn't a huge disappointment but the punishment needs to fit the offense. The fine would be somewhere between $1 million to four million US and they ALL can find that money but it will hurt as well.
     
  6. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
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    Tone Def
    If Michelin and these 7 teams are not given the most severe penalties possible, then expect the next time a team has a technical problem, and the FIA will not change the rules the morning of the race, you will see another demonstration of unprofessional behavior.

    Fine Michelin, strip points from the teams and all 14 drivers. Either this behavior is stopped now, or a precendent has been set. No one else, the fans, IMS, FIA, should have to pay for the error in judgement demonstrated on June 19.

    The question I would love to hear an answer to someday, what were these teams thinking? Did they really believe that morning that F-1 fans and the world-wide sporting press would support their position? Especially knowing that Michelin, to quote them, "screwed up", came unprepared?

    Looks like they were wrong. If I were one of their sponsors, I would question the intelligence of the team to which I was providing millions.

    Sad day.
     
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  8. Koby

    Koby Formula 3

    Dec 14, 2003
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    this is where it goes from bad to worse, bringing this action against teams already teatering on the verge of breaking away will only polarize the sport further

    what I can't understand is how Michelin is coming out of this as the good guys? the whole mess is their fault, not the teams, who were only doing as they were told. The only valid charge in that list is that the teams didn't agree to run at reduced speeds through turn 13, other than that, I place full responsibilty on Michelin. They should pay back the fans
     
  9. Adrenln328

    Adrenln328 Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2003
    346
    Kingston, Wa, USA
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    Byron
    Yes, I understand your point, we did get to see practice & qualifying. However, having said that, I wouldn't have spent money on the whole trip if I had known Michelin would fail in their responsibility to provide a safe tire & the 7 teams would fail to race within the rules.
     
  10. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

    Apr 28, 2004
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    I don't think the FIA has a leg to stand on.

    I see nowhere in the rules that say the 2nd compound of tires a mfgr provides MUST be safe and durable enough to race. I see it only as a suggestion; and not a rule.

    The rules only say that a team has to show up and go through the formation lap. They do NOT say that a team can not withdraw after one lap.

    The advice from Michlein to the teams should be seen as only a technical suggestion. It was the choice of the teams and not Michelin as to withdrawing or not.

    I haven't seen the contacts, but I believe the possible legal problems stem from exactly what the FIA contracted to provide to the speedway, and what the speedway contracted to provide a fan in exchange for the price of a ticket.

    If the FIA tries to sue Michelin over their failure to provide a "safe" tire alternative to the teams, I think the FIA will loose.

    If the FIA decides to have Bridgestone provide tires to all the teams, than it will be a loss for the sport and the fans, and I think Michelin will sue the FIA and win.

    The ultimate responsibility lies with the FIA. It is THEIR duty, and not that of the mfgrs or the teams to act in the best interest of the fans and the sport. They did not live up to their duty. What happened is ultimately due to THEIR decisions.

    Not making the FIA ultimately responsible is kind of like saying that Presisident Bush is the one responsible for the deaths in the middle east, and blaiming them of the equipment or the military commanders.
     
  11. Mark(study)

    Mark(study) F1 Veteran

    Oct 13, 2001
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    They thought that if they gave the points to Ferrari... Then Ferrari would stop being the only major team blocking the FIA from changing the track. And the fans could have seen a exhibition race.

    Ferrari was the swing-voter on Sunday. The other 4 cars that raced waited to see what Ferrari would do.
    If Ferrari sat-out there would be no race. FIA waited to see what ferrari would do?

    When Ferrari has 14 teams down and beat.. they chose to kill the race instead of show some mercy.
    THIS IS total domination at the expense of the fans. Does it feel Good Ferrari?

    Ferrari is not at fault. Michelin caused the problem...but Ferrari's vote with the FIA made the problem un-fixable for the fans.

    So they had a choice. Make the problem worse or let everyone save face (and just take the points, and vote to change to a slower corner 13).
     
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  13. dasMafia

    dasMafia Formula Junior

    Jun 9, 2004
    422
    Lincoln, Nebraska
    you know... this is interesting, I'm not sure I've seen another website so vehemently anti-michelin...

    ultimately, yes, michelin is at fault for not providing tires under contract, but because of the new tire rules and the lack of adequate testing opportunities, I refuse to shoulder any blame on the teams shod with them.

    seriously, the team principles had no choice in the matter, they HAD to pull the cars, from a liability standpoint and a business standpoint. 50-50 shot you're going to immolate a chasis agains teh wall? hmm, yeah, pull the car.

    as for the remaining teams running... don't blame them at all, they were prepared and they had the equipment, no reason to penalize them.

    HOWEVER....

    Bernie and the FIA refused to allow michelin to use a substitute tire simply because they were not on site at teh beginning of the weekend, and that, IMO is simply the real crime here. the FIA very easily could have said "yes, run the new tires, we will make a determination at a later date as to the legality of the tires, but run the race and see how it all comes out and we'll sort out the details later." as always, Berni Ecclestone is the one ultimately responsible for putting on the show... and he failed MISERABLY on sunday.

    also, anyone who thinks the fans behaved badly.... holy crap, just think for 5 minutes about the response in a place like brazil or italy... the fans, as a collective, were SAINTS. My brother called me at about lap 15 asking "WTF IS GOING ON????" no one in the stands knew what was going on until they popped their cell phones and called their buddies back home.... that is also deplorable.

    its too bad there are so many fragmented threads on this... could have some good discussion.
     
  14. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
    13,314
    I 100% agree with all of this.

    For those that think the teams should have points taken away, what are you smoking? All of those previous races had points awarded fair and sqaure. If points are removed, I hope those teams decide to stop racing in the season and start their own series in a matter of weeks.
     
  15. Jayson@IGF

    Jayson@IGF Rookie

    Aug 17, 2004
    27
    Mountain Home, AR
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    Jayson Cotter
    The FIA told the teams they could run a new set of tires, but there would be a penalty. However it would not be exclusion.

    They also told them they could change a tire as many times as they wanted to if it was a safety factor.

    The FIA did what they could to get a race going they gave Michelin every reasonable option and Michelin refused.
     
  16. yzee

    yzee F1 Veteran
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    Apr 16, 2005
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    I was there and have read all you can about this debacle. I may be wrong, but I just can't believe that these teams would do this without speaking to corporate heads of MB, Honda, Toyota, BMW and Renault. I can't imagine Ron Dennis pulling the plug without calling MB headquarters. If this idea could be close to correct, is it a sign of a breakaway series, or an attempt to set the political stage to ouster Bernie and his stupid tire rule. I also find it very ironic/curious that this happened in the backyard of the man who split/destroyed American open wheel racing.
     
  17. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    2,187
    Sheffield, UK
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    Anthony Currie
    #14 Anthony_Ferrari, Jun 21, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Things could get worse: http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns15075.html
    http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=24915
     
  18. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,938
    USA
    Michelin is to blame. If the teams are at all held legally/financially responsible, they should be indemnified by Michelin (IMO)
     
  19. Koby

    Koby Formula 3

    Dec 14, 2003
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    Jason Kobies
    By all accounts, your information is inaccurate. It was the FIA's decision alone and Ferrari stated that they would abide by whatever the FIA decided. Further, Jordan broke rank with the 7 Michelin teams on their own volition (although I'd suggest that they never had any right to not race since they had no equipment issue)
     
  20. 4RE Bob

    4RE Bob Formula Junior

    Feb 7, 2004
    567
    Muskoka, Ontario
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    Bob
    Part of the dilemma is that it depends on which set of facts you choose to believe. I was under the impression that the tires flown over from France after qualifying were still deemed to be inappropriate for the application and Michelin said that the new tires should not be used with the current track configuration. If this is true, then I blame the FIA and Ferrari.

    While Ferrari did nothing wrong, nine out of 10 teams agreed to the chicane. Ferrari did not. Ferrari was more interested in the points than in the overall good of Formula One.

    My guess is that Ferrari was heavily fueled, believing that the Michelin teams would have to come in and change tires to the new tires very early in the race. This would have put Ferrari in the lead, but no guarantee of a victory. When they found out that the new tires could not be used, they could have settled for a race with the six Bridgestone cars at the front, followed by the Michelin cars and the addition of the chicane. This would have appeased everybody, and still given Ferrari an advantage, but it would have decreased Ferrari's odds of winning, compared to simply racing the Minardis and Jordans. Ferrari opted for the better odds, which they were legally entitled to do. I just think it was a morally and ethically bankrupt decision.

    If on the other hand, the tires flown in were safe, and the seven teams weren't prepared to pit and install them, I blame the seven teams -- but I don't believe that this is the true scenario.
     
  21. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    Apr 29, 2004
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    Ferrari wasn't informed about the chicane proposal, so how could they have agreed! Read the official press releases please, it's all there. Michelin teams refused all sensible propositions made by FIA. Michelin set the tone by bringing only one type of tyre. To me it looks like a set up, but can't figure out how Michelin would benefit. Maybe the gambled big time and lost, big time.
     
  22. bretm

    bretm F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2001
    4,577
    Northern NJ
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    Bret
    Be careful what you wish for…

    It's easy to see how the field is polarizing between the potential GPWC defectors and the F1 faithful. But if you are Ron Dennis, step back and take a deep breath. Now think of a series (GPWC) where the manufacturers run it... alright, now think about sitting across a board room from Flavio and expecting him to come up with a decision that has even the remotest semblance of justice. Yeah, back to reality. They'll all be looking to change the rules for next season to favor their own strong points. Are these people dense? Do they not see what happened to Indy racing?

    The tires they flew over were built purposely for Indy, they were more than safe, they would have massacred the Bridgestones. Michelin got two free days of 7 teams testing at the track under the exact conditions (temp, humidity, barometric pressure) that the race would be run in. Sure it is speculation, but in light of their resources and knowledge in tire construction, we have to conclude that such an overwhelming "testing" advantage like this would have led to an unbelievably good tire. That's frucken cheating no matter how you cut it. Bridgestone had to extrapolate from old data to come up with their best guess as to what tire would win this weekend, then show up with it and make the best. Michelin's attempted coupe here would have taken all the guessing out. Do you people not see this?
    And we know this is the case because 1) they wouldn't have spent millions of dollars to build and fly over tires for 7 teams that would face the same problems, and 2) they never ran them, so there's no way the FIA could deem them unsafe, they were definitely safer than what they were running all weekend...

    Bottom line, all the defectors (basically everyone on Michelin this year) needs to STFU, stop whining and maybe try and contribute to the rule changes (which, keep in mind, were put in place to screw one team over huge). Newflash, Bernie and Co. is not going to give away increased percentages of profits to Johnny-come-lately of F1 (Renault, Toyota, etc.). So, instead of complaining for more of the pie, why not work hard to make the pie bigger... in essence, making your slice larger. If F1 grows as a whole, you make more money, pretty simple. Sure, Ferrari will make even more money then, so will McLaren, but newsflash #2 - they've been in the game forever, you moved into town a couple years ago.

    Ferrari, although generally merciless, is not at fault. Pacifying the other wankers sets an irreperable precedent.

    "this isn't frucking 'Nam, there are rules."
     
  23. Koby

    Koby Formula 3

    Dec 14, 2003
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    bretm, quite right. I see alot of people complaining that the FIA would not bend the rules... the same people complaining everytime the FIA has done so in the past!! Make up your mind! Is it only wrong when it doesn't suit your needs? I think the FIA did the correct thing for a governing body to do, uphold the rules. The sport wouldn't be worth a piss if they hadn't. Instead of one ruined race, we'd have a ruined season, total anarchy in the sport.
     
  24. Mark(study)

    Mark(study) F1 Veteran

    Oct 13, 2001
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    Michelin have admitted their mistakes, and they did the right thing in advising their teams not to run on the circuit as it existed.

    The FIA, who are charged with the well-being of the sport world-wide, failed when they refused to come up with a compromise.

    A chicane? Who cares?

    No points? Who cares (except for Ferrari)?

    That the FIA failed to take into account the reverberations a six-car race would create shows they care less about the sport and its supporters than they do about STRICT enforcement of arbitrary rules.

    When an event attracts millions of people from all over the world....I want men working for F1 that can think on their feet. The FIA does not have those men.
     
  25. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

    Apr 28, 2004
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    I agree. The tires flown over might have been safER than what was already at Indy, but as they were not constructed SPECIFICALLY for Indy, still not safe enough. In today's world, technology has gotten to the point that specific tires are not only required for each and every track but also for various conditions at each specific track.

    We have come to a piont in time when a decision MUST be made to either allowed unlimited development in all areas (and allow those who can't afford it to drop by the wayside), or to have a lot of "spec" items, including tires.
     
  26. watt

    watt Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2004
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    i care. you're the perfect fan for nascar
     
  27. dogue

    dogue Formula Junior

    Sep 2, 2001
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    Phoenix, AZ
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    Terry
    Article 131 states: "The starting grid will be published four hours before the race. Any competitor whose car(s) is (are) unable to start for any reason whatsoever (or who has good reason to believe that their car(s) will not be ready to start) must inform the stewards accordingly at the earliest opportunity and, in any event, no later than 45 minutes before the start of the race.”

    I think that the FIA will have a reason to fine or penalize the teams considering this article. I think the Michelin and the 7 teams are a bunch of whinning little babies that wanted their way or they weren't not going to play, disgraceful. But I also hope the FIA addresses this with a letter of disappointment and harsh words, we do not want to prolong this debacle into appeals and hears and more protests, it getting rediculous. This event shouldn't ruin the rest of the season, lets get back to racing. If any points are going to be taken away it should only be constructors points as the drivers did not have a choice in the matter. A fine is more appropriate (but unnecessary) as the teams earned their existing points. Make them use the same engine through Germany and that should be it. Let IMS sue them for the ticket sales if they feel they have a case. The Fans are not garanteed a good show, I have been to concerts were the band showed up drunk and stunk up the place so I went home un-happy, wa wa. It is a sporting event and is unpredictable, the fans should be pissed at Michelin and not buy their product & stop supporting the teams (and their sponsors) that bowed out.
     
  28. Adrenln328

    Adrenln328 Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2003
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    Byron

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