News

The Daytona is not loved.

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by amenasce, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    26,967
    Paris / Chicago
    Full Name:
    Andrew Menasce
    That is my conclusion. Almost every other Ferrari have gone up in price. $200k is now the norm for a 250 GTE. $300K wont get you the best Dino, 330 GTC are on the way up, probably around $350-$400k being the entry level and yet Daytonas do not touch $400k.

    Why is that? In my humble opinion (and maybe im the only one..), Daytonas are more desirable than any of the above. Amazing V12 sound, Amazing torque, great performance (You can actually go very fast in a Daytona). And a very unique shape. The Daytona is the Classic Ferrari bargain (with the Boxer).

    Discuss!
     
  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    7,246
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    #2 miurasv, Aug 21, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
    I too love the Daytona and the Boxer. They are among the most beautiful cars ever made. Perhaps the Daytona suffers from having such a timeless design? It still looks modern now, 45 years later.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_UAxTIbwi8[/ame]
     
  3. regaliaconcours

    regaliaconcours Formula Junior

    Jul 6, 2006
    307
    Sun Valley
    Full Name:
    MICHAEL REGALIA
    Ahh, be patient their day is coming.................soon!!
     
  4. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    73,274
    Vegas baby
    It's more like Dino's are overvalued than Daytona's undervalued.
     
  5. Dogdish

    Dogdish Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2005
    352
    Denver
    #5 Dogdish, Aug 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Andrew,

    24 valves, 12 pistons, 6 carbs, 4 cam shafts, 2 distributors, 2 oil filters, and 12 quarts of oil, what's not to love? :)

    Very cool car.

    Dogdish
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 30, 2007
    66,411
    I think there are a few reasons:

    one, it's not the prettiest car Ferrari ever built (eye of the beholder of course), and it's a bit "neither fish nor fowl"....it isn't as easily recognizable as a vintage Ferrari like a 275 GTB/GTC (or even a 330 GT 2+2 or GTE), and yet it isn't a modern rear engine Ferrari like the Boxer. so it falls into a bit of a "no man's land" in a few ways.

    that said, I do agree with Bob, they are probably undervalued right now, along with the GTC/4.
     
  7. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    7,246
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    The engine is a masterpiece aesthetically, in performance and not least aurally. I could look at a Daytona for hours it's so beautiful.
     
  8. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    Well firstly I think there is no reason why the Daytona should not increase in line with other Ferrari's like the 330 and the Dino. Only approx 1200 were made so quantity is not a problem. However I think I know what is. I have read many expert driving reports that point out the car's heavy handling. Some go so far as to call the car 'a truck' in terms of driving ability. Its very heavy and that is why the output in terms of horsepower increased to accommodate all that extra weight. So in terms of drivability this car ranks very poorly (compared to the 275 and the 250 series).

    My personal opinion: I think the Daytona is an interesting car. But must I own one? No. And I think many people think like me. Having said that to finally answer your question: I see no reason why the Daytona will not appreciate in line with other cars. After all the spyder has done well but that is perhaps explained by the limited (120?) cars they made.
     
  9. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    I like what you state. I agree with you very much.
     
  10. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
    3,536
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Full Name:
    Mario
    I think TheMayor is right. There's a big rise in prices for many vintage Ferraris that may not sustain itself in the long run. Then again I don't think Daytona prices will decrease so soon.
     
  11. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    7,246
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    This was not a car for a woman and yes the controls are very heavy but there is a great satisfaction in driving the car at speed. It was the fastest car in the world in its day.
     
  12. carguyjohn350

    carguyjohn350 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 7, 2007
    2,851
    Houston, TX
    Full Name:
    John P
    Interesting question.

    I think its probbaly a lot of things.

    The relative modernity of the Daytona compared to the 275 and especially 250 series. Very different experience, from what Ive read, sadly never expereinced.

    I could be wrong, but I would assume there are a lot more Daytonas than there are 275s etc.

    I concur that the Daytona is a nice looking car, but not as pretty as the 275 etc.

    Possibly you could even draw the same parallel between the 250 cars and the 275. Whats a normal (if there is such a thing) 275 worth these days? Touch over $1MM usd? Compare that to the cost of a 250 two seater leaving out the GTE as its really a different animal imho. Whats a SWB or a TdF cost nowadays? Probably a lot more than a 275. Why is anyones guess, but Id assume the same reasons as above. Less supply of 250s and more "classic."

    Just my thoughts.
     
  13. italiancars

    italiancars Formula 3

    Apr 18, 2004
    2,467
    Hershey, PA
    Daytonas have jump over 100k in value in the past 3 years.
     
  14. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

    Oct 18, 2003
    2,658
    Surrey, England
    Full Name:
    Matthew
    There were more Daytonas made than 275s, but also importantly there always seem to be quite a lot of Daytonas for sale at anyone time? Admittedly this is an unscientific test but Classicdriver.com has 18 Daytonas listed to 1 275GTB and 2 330GTCs for sale right now.

    As I said on a thread in the UK section I actually don't care that my Daytona isn't going up in value (it actually means it's a little cheaper to ensure) I'm just going to enjoy driving it.
     
  15. flat-12

    flat-12 Formula Junior

    Mar 18, 2011
    289
    Germany
    There are quite a lot of Daytonas for sale, but you have to notice, there are 18 cars offered, 5 of them are spider conversions - for sure not everybodys choice, 2 of them are competition (or called so), so still 11 cars remain.

    I agree, compared to some other Ferraris a Daytona (or a Boxer) may be underrated or some other Ferraris are overrated.
     
  16. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    I think this a dangerous statement to make. That is like saying a GTO is overrated compared to other Ferrari's. That statement means nothing. This has always been the case and will likely continue to be the case. There is often a reason why the market likes certain models more and certain models less. Yes sometimes the markets are wrong but over the long term they are usually right.
     
  17. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 15, 2006
    11,785
    Sydney
    #17 IanB, Aug 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The "expert" driving reports have always amused me but they certainly equipped me with a range of inaccurate perceptions before I actually bought a Daytona. There is nothing poor about it's drivability, quite the opposite in fact.

    My (non A/C) Daytona (on corner weight scales) is 1560Kg with a half tank of fuel, this is hardly "very heavy".

    Daytona steering is heavy at low speeds, that is the compromise for its excellent feel at high speed. Ferrari made a lot of progress (as you would hope) with high speed stability and handling. e.g. the Daytona has forged control arms to cure the flexing that caused earlier models to wander at speed.

    What is a problem for Daytonas is that they are very sensitive to the condition of the steering and suspension components and the age of the tyres. The suspension bushes have a short life, the steering box is often over-adjusted by ignorant mechanics, etc. A car with a bad setup is indeed a truck, but a good car has a harmony of weighting that makes for very enjoyable driving when "pressing on".

    Sadly, the world of auction hype makes cars desirable or not according to their growth in value. I suspect that, after he calms down in a week or two, the new owner of the $450K 246GTS won't be exploring its handling limits on a fast winding road. He'll more likely be wrapping it in cotton wool and hoping to avoid the slightest wear and tear, to protect his investment.

    If the Daytona is becoming the entry level for classic V12 berlinetta motoring, so what? They are attainable by more people, will be enjoyed more and are unlikely to go backwards in value.

    ps. I love 275's too!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  18. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

    Dec 11, 2006
    12,461
    Left Coast
    Does price = Love ?

    Why are Ghibli's so cheap?
     
  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    7,246
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    They are not cheap anymore.
     
  20. malcolmb

    malcolmb Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 17, 2002
    934
    San diego
    Full Name:
    Malcolm Barksdale
    #20 malcolmb, Aug 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  21. ersatzS2

    ersatzS2 Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 24, 2009
    805
    Norfolk VA
    my personal testimonial: in '07 I decided to add a vintage Ferrari to the garage. I was a young teen when it was new, and remembered Sonny Crocket's ride in Miami Vice and the original Gumball Rally movie. So I went shopping for a Daytona, and looked at and often drove many of the cars then on the market. The more I saw, the less enamored I became of my plan. I thought the dash, gauges, switchgear looked kind of cheap. The complexity of the engine/trans/suspension was really endearing, and beautiful to behold, but also clearly really complex and likely expensive to keep in top shape, and I worried am I up to it myself. Finally, the driving experience kind of left me cold: it seemed built for the autobahn, not country roads around rural NJ on Saturday mornings. At normal speeds it felt just plain ponderous. Great for the Cannonball Baker, not ideal for a quick run on curvy roads to get Cappuccino in the next town.
    Then I drove a 330GTC. It was night and day: I felt like _this_ was what I envisioned as a 'period' driving experience. Light, nimble, elegant, lovely 12 cyl sound without all the drama. Thin rimmed wood wheel, 60's period gauges, delicate chrome trim. I bought a survivor unrestored car in a funky period color and have enjoyed every minute.

    A couple other thoughts:
    1)I wonder if the Daytona's initial critic's still have a point when they expressed dismay that Ferrari's response to the Muira was another front-engined GT. The Daytona is an incredibly good 60's car, but somewhat anachronistic 70's car? Whenever I see a Daytona with wires I feel it looks like a car with an identity crisis.
    2) 1200 is not a low production number by collector car standards. it's hard to think of too many examples of cars that maintain real breakout valuations with >1000 production units. 300SLs... Can't think of another example!
    3) It's a complex car, where the restoration/service/maintenance costs are proportionately much higher than the earlier cars. The ultimate example of restoration cost-to-value leverage might be a 356 Speedster. A Daytona is at the other extreme.
     
  22. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 15, 2006
    11,785
    Sydney
    I agree with much of your sentiment, a GTC is less dramatic and easier to drive, the Daytona is faster and tougher. Different strokes and all that.

    But (1) Ferrari were right, Daytona out drives a Muira every which way, even if it isn't as pretty.
    (2) yes, higher volumes impact value and that's a big part of where prices are today IMO
    (3) I've restored a 365GT2+2 and my Daytona. Costs were identical. 5 years of use since has required only routine maintenance, they're a strong car.
     
  23. Shark01

    Shark01 F1 Rookie

    Jun 25, 2005
    3,376
    I'm totally out of my league on vintage Ferraris, but the one thing I've noticed is pricing and trends ride waves of value/desireability perceptions.

    Daytonas went up first, now others are catching up. At some point, people will look around and say "why am I buying a 6 cylinder when I can get a Daytona for $50k more?". Then the Daytona will ride the wave up again.

    In the same way, I think Boxers have stayed down because the Testarossa market is so flat....made WAY too many.
     
  24. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 15, 2006
    11,785
    Sydney
    that is the irony of the collectible car market, cars that were unpopular when new are rare and valuable and vice versa.

    To use but a few examples:

    The 250GTE was the financial salvation of Ferrari in the 60's, as the TR was in the 80's, to some extent both cars are paying the price for that now.

    An Aston Martin DB5 or 6 is an underbraked slow truck compared to a 330GT2+2, but relative volumes dictate a much higher value for the AM.
     
  25. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Soon light delicate cars will become the sort after old cars.

    Why? Because all modern cars are heavy barges due to modern nanny state safety legistration.

    Therefore this puts the heavy Daytona at a disadvantage and means it is competing against similar weighted modern cars, but the Dino will buy you that old fashioned and absolutely wonderful delicate and responsive feeling from an era when we used to design cars to be involving to drive.

    I also see old Lotus (maybe Alfa's like SZ's) road cars becoming more valuable because we will never be able to create modern cars as light and nimble as they were.

    If I had a choose between a Daytona or BB ... I have to admit I'd probably purchase the BB, but I reckon a Dino would give me greater enjoyment in our speed limit restricted modern world.
    Pete
    ps: We all have to admit that a Dino is miles better looking than a Daytona. The front of a Daytona looking straight on at it is close to ugly.
     

Share This Page