The end of Ferrari, as we know it

It’s a fascinating phenomenon to say the least. I don’t remember vinylphiles (and I’m one of them) raising such a stink when mp3s came out. We were all confident in the subjective superiority of our alternative medium.

It’s like a man that keep on putting down other wives to prove his wife is “perfect.”

I won’t lie though, I do have a masochistic streak and enjoy watching (even parrying) the behaviors.

 

Brooks, the owner of that video (which I’ve conversed with) takes the modern approach that I respect.

he owns an SF90 AND a Tesla.

He also owns a vintage RX7.

That to me is a legit car guy that gets it. Not some person that says their car is the greatest (and everything that comes out is trash for everyone else)

if your happy with you car, bless you! I just don’t see the need to mock Ferrari latest cars as a necessary element to prove your vintage Ferrari is “the best.”

which I argue makes me an even more loyal and truer “Ferrari” fan. I love all Ferrari, old and new.

 

I appreciate your reply so much. It cuts through so much of the BS. Thank You!

You’re absolutely right I’m passionate about Ferrari. Guilty as charged.

I’ve had this itching suspicion that folks don’t care about Ferrari proper, just with what’s in their garage. Bear in mind there is nothing wrong wrong with this, on the contrary more power to you as well!

I just thought this is literally a Ferrari enthusiast forum, that’s all. Most general automotive sites I see often attack Ferrari like this thread, hence I’m surprised to see it in my own “house.”

 

The critical error you make is the zero sum game. On both sides of the notion.

let me explain.

In dense cities, a Ferrari is already going the same speed as a Prius whether it’s the Las Vegas Strip, South Beach Miami, or a London roundabout.

nobody is making 1/4 mile runs down Hollywood Boulevard. There simply is too much traffic.

Yet, you can still feel the magic of an SP3 taking the hairpin at Monaco. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.
https://youtube.com/shorts/aoukw0Hf0A8?feature=share
so they are luxury handbags then?
No

Simply look no further the horological space for how important these seemingly insignificant things matter to enthusiasts.

hogwash you say?

No, because on track we’re already quibbling over not seconds but fractions of a second, often determined not by tenths, hundredths, but thousandths of second. Guess what? For a person dropping a few millions to not drive it, it matters.

Below is one of many occasions where I’ve seen position determined by 3rd magnitude.

 

Here’s the beauty, love your Casio watch?! I’m happy for you! Not being sarcastic!

I just don’t understand this need to shake your hand at the clouds shaped like iwatches.

Nobody is saying you have to throw away your Casio.

 

Forgive me but I'm not sure I'm following your argument Paul

I live in LA ("Hollywood Blvd") and agree with you that in most of *my* cases there is too much traffic, so I'm thinking of the adage that it's better to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow

That's not to say my Speciale is slow, but what the Capital Markets presentation of Ferrari shows me is a focus on "lap time performance" for product development and using that as a barometer for success, rather than a focus on enhancing the emotions of the Ferrari driving experience and retaining their bread and butter of V8 + V12

I bet you sure can feel the magic of an SP3 taking the hairpin at Monaco. NA V12 right behind your ears, that only a very very wealthy and select few will be able to experience. What about the mass produced models? Will 296gtb in EV mode be the same? Or qualifying mode, when the hairpin is allowing 50 kmh? What about an electric Purosangue? or EV Ferrari sports car? How does the focus on Fiorano lap time, power, hybridization help one feel the magic of taking that hairpin in Monaco, rather than remove some of that magic? I'm worried that Ferrari will produce the emotive cars only as Icona and the very very hard to attain, while the mid engine and front engined cars will be hybrid or pure EV.

I'm missing how F1 plays into this and how obviously every millisecond matters there on track

 

I wouldn't equate to Casio here, I would liken this argument more towards a very reputable watchmaker: Patek Philippe

You won't see Thierry Stern talking about how he is going to make a digital watch, or a battery powered watch, or any sort of iWatch that you'll need to charge and that can call the ambulance if you fall or track your steps, there are better companies out there making better watches for that type of purpose

In fact he has gone on record saying he will fiercely defend his process of watchmaking, the handmade movements, which have been the hallmark of his company since inception

Patek = Ferrari in my opinion, except Ferrari has to deal with far more regulation due to the nature of their business. Whether they have thrown the baby out with the bathwater, gone too far in line with regulations and believing the future is EV for *all* car manufacturers and now packaging that under the guise of Fiorano lap time performance , only those behind closed doors would truly know...

I love Ferrari, one of the best brands in the world for me. And that is precisely why I'm on here, I'm not going to be a blind zealot for them even if they make an EV minibus, but there are reasons why I love Ferrari and I'm worried that those reasons are slowly fading away as far as the future is concerned!

 

Your argument has placed qualitative elements above quantitative measures yes?

If not, then we are in agreement, and I misinterpreted your posts.

If so, you of all people should understand it. What would the raison d'etre of your Speciale be if it performs worse than a regular 458?

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Now one can say, it's relative, agreed! Some will prefer the analog F355 over a Speciale any day. I respect it, who doesn't enjoy the heel-toe-goodness of a gated?

However, I never saw any of these folks argue the 296 should be slower, than an F355. That quite frankly is the odd point I very surprised to see here fo all places.

 

Some here poo-pooh the commodification of cars due to EV technology (see Quartz) - Whether it be Patek, AP, or VC - you hit the nail on the head! None of them can do a better job than a cheap $50 atomic watch for their original purpose - telling time. yet why do folks drop millions? (that's where the F1 analogy comes in)

The horological analogy is double-edged. - We don't have "Watch Olympics."

Add that element to the equation.

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I've experienced enough hybrids to argue they provide an exceptional experience as good as pure ICE.

I would choose a LaF over a Speciale any day (twice on Sunday), even if judging by pure driving enjoyment ONLY. (Let's add to my hypothetical that they are the same price.) Same conclusion.

Of course, you're free to say the P1, LaF, and 918 are boring cars - that's fine - and I believe you. Why would I question your honest assessment if you think a La Ferrari is sleepy vs say a pure ICE? I take your opinion in good faith.
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Now in terms of a PURE EV. Would that neuter the experience? It very well may. Hence I remind folks that only Ferrari 10% of cars are slated to go that route. So the gnashing of the teeth is unwarranted in my opinion, furthermore, I argue Ferrari should at least have 1 model to compete in the space if EVs turn out to perform 'better' than their hybrid counterparts.

After all, I'm not saying Ferrari should always have the 'fastest' car on the road - but can we agree they should at least be somewhere in the neighborhood?

 

I'm still struggling to clearly understand your points, whether they are intentionally ambiguous or not, let me try again

I am trying to be as crystal clear as possible that Ferrari has uniquely created magic in the past, and I am concerned that magic will not persist if the "capital markets trajectory" continues (NA->turbo->hybridization->EV, hiring an EV tech guy to lead Ferrari as CEO, future regulations etc)

I couldn't really care less if my Speciale performed worse than a 458, in fact I'm willing to bet there are tuned or modified 458s that are indeed probably faster than my Speciale, which is exactly my point. 296, SF 90, Roma, Portofino, list goes on all faster too. Which car would most people want if you could buy new today, with everything the same? For MY use case, I don't care about lap times, or who is faster than who, it's not a **** measuring contest for me. I care about the emotional experience looking at my car, driving my car, in regular every day scenarios from the grocery store to the PCH and canyons, which is what makes my Speciale (and a 355) a thrilling proposition. A Nissan Leaf will now blow my Speciale, and a 355, out of the water from a stop to 60mph and maybe beyond. Again, I. Could. Not. Care. Less. EVs and hybrids have rendered the performance argument null and void IMO

And it's a bit extreme to compare a nearly 30 year old 355 to the latest Ferrari 296, I made my point with Porsche. Look at what they are doing producing the latest GT 911. So you can spec new, to your taste, with warranty, a brand new NA 6MT sportscar if you so desire and you get to be the original owner, you get to pick it up off the lot and take in the delivery experience (992.1). And again, the performance is just about identical to the prior gen from 2018 (991.2), and pretty damn close to the gen before that released in 2014 in fact (991.1). Same for power. No one is complaining about how slow their GT3 or GT3RS is. Now note how we are in 2022, and you have people willing to spend close to 100% of the MSRP on a markup just to get that car (150k ADMs at peak), the lines are out the door, people are furious that they are 50th in line at their local dealer for one, etc...

Lets do an alternate universe theory where Ferrari made 2 versions of the 296 since you want to compare the 296 to a 355 weirdly. Give one version the heavier more powerful quieter V6 turbo hybrid, and give the other a dinosaur NA screaming V8 (or V6) that is what 200-300 pounds lighter, 200 HP+ less, and let's say 1 second slower 0-60 and same for all other related performance metrics... and let's see who wants what. To me the lighter, slower 296 with the screaming V8 (or V6) would be more unique in today's offerings of sports cars and super cars, rather than trying to be yet another car manufacturer that is making an uber powerful, heavier, quieter hybrid or EV. That's why Porsche's GT cars stand out so much today in my eyes, and same goes for Ferrari's NA V12 while it's still here

Maybe I'm in the minority, but when I go on IG or watch YouTube videos, most enthusiasts I notice are lamenting the hybridization/electrification of sports cars because they are neutering the very things we love and enjoy about these cars

The focus should be on emotive driving nirvana, NOT power/performance/laptimes/hybridization/electrification IMO. I would kill for the opportunity to spec a 458/Speciale/F12/F12tdf new now. All "slow" on Fiorano, "underpowered" compared to hybrids and EVs, but Jesus H Christ do they deliver on sound, emotions, feelings driving a car. They deliver on the connected feeling between revs, sound, power, lightness from your eyes to your ears, fingertips, feet, butt and all parts of your being. Let the 296/SF90 blow them out of the water on power, performance, laptimes. I've turned down opportunities to spec those cars

You didn't address my point either that taking the hairpin in Monaco in a SP3 would be something I bet all of us dream of. Or your favorite canyon road. I don't know that the feeling would be equal for a 296, whether she is in EV mode (dead silent, how is this experience different than a Taycan, i3, or Leaf), or quali mode with 800hp at your fingertips, let me know how fun that is to push a car with that power safely on public roads with 1/3rd the noise. I would take my Speciale, which actually feels slow to me sometimes compared to a lot of cars today, because it provides me with 5x the fun, 5x the sound, 5x the NVH

Wonder if Ferrari is listening, because they just emailed me a private survey to ask about my opinion on ESG and I tried my best to convey these exact points to them!

 

I'm a simple man. You say:

As I said three times, your premise is flawed from both ends.

Is The Past you seek?
The exact position made about the F355 (or take any analog Ferrari) vs your Special (or now that you say you bought the special for non-performance reasons) - say just a regular 458.

So which past 'magic' are you yearning for? Folks on this thread will mock your flag wherever you plant it. I don't understand it, but here it is.

I don't think you realize I'm actually defending one of your premises.

Is The Future you decry?
Then some folks put down hybrid; I say that's odd, given the LaFerrari, in my opinion, is one of the finest Ferrari driving experiences (period.)

Hell, what's the hybrid F1-75? A leisure coach? If somebody here says a hybrid F1-75 is 'not exciting' because it's not a pure ICE, whoah is all I can say.

For full electric, let's just say I'm a never say never type of person. I will never say a 100% full electric will never be as thrilling as pure ice. I think forever is a long time. Hang me for saying the Lotus Evija or Rimac are exciting cars, especially for generations Alpha+. Don't like it? Not saying you *have* to, what I am saying is Ferrari needs to be at the forefront of winning. Again, I just never thought I would see Ferrarichat devolve to old men seeking slower ways/losing ways - that's all.

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I bring up the SP3 and Monaco because the argument was made we're already too fast. I put that clip to show that in many cases, a Ferrari is a handbag AND a performance machine (they are not mutually exclusive.) - though the desire to make them slower would destroy that balance.

That's my point.

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If you desire a more minimalist car, it's been done - twice: both to failure. Just study Ferrari history, starting at the original Dino and Maserati.

Now you can say, third times the charm, well - let's just say I don't think Ferrari should go pure raw for consumer space. I argue the Germans and Americans have that space on LOCK.

If you want a no-frills, pure car, - it's already here (For years) - it's called Corse Clienti and Ferrari Challenge. I can send you the sign-up forms.


Kindest regards.

 

@papou

Also, I noticed you never responded to my question. Do you still think the stock 63' 89hp Lotus Elan will destroy the stock 2023 370hp Kia Stinger GT2 on a standard track?



Seriously, the internet seems to make 'experts' out of everyone. Many folks are better served being quiet and learning than speaking and looking like a

 

I see you're also one of the folks that think a LaFerrari is not as thrilling as a pure ICE. I believe you, don't get me wrong.

Just forgive me to think it is an odd sentiment.

As far as Formula E. Think of it as comparing NBA circa 2023 vs ABA 1967.

Specifically say the Anaheim Amigos vs The Golden State Warriors.

 

Again, folks are talking about fuel economy as the reason Ferrari should eschew electrification. (now towing as well?)

Man, this is the best thread I've participated in here in a while.

@695 The strangeness is everywhere, not just about Ferrari, I'll tell you that.

Could you imagine if I posted this in the F8 forum??

"I was thinking between an F8 and 488.

Could somebody tell me what the MPG is for both? Also, what is the towing capacity?

Thanks"

I would be banned immediately for trolling.

 

There is a dedicated forum here to discuss P&R. That said, I still don’t understand what any legislative body has to do with instant torque. I mean love or hate aerodynamics, I don’t know what Timbuktu would have to do with active spoilers.

 

Yup. This thread taught me a lot.

 

Same was said about earlier cars. So now @695 add to fuel efficiency, towing. Now Safety! As the new priority list for Ferrari.

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guys, I’m looking for my next Ferrari.

my wish list: good fuel economy, has to be able to tow 5,000 pounds and last but definitely not least, has to have IIHS top safety pick.


****
i would be laughed out of the room, except this thread maybe? I never realized these 3 things were so important to the Ferrari community.

 

Everyone I’ve talked to bought it for both. Alas algorithms these days place us in a binary world.

 

40%+ of the population will never buy a Ferrari.

 

Per this thread in 2013

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/how-many-ferraris-in-the-u-s.395619/

At that time about .012 (1:8000 ?).

So less than 98.5% will ever own a Ferrari - USA, so globally less than .001 ???

Just saying….. So maybe an EV Ferrari appeals to that less than 1% who needs to save the planet [emoji4]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Speed should not be the justification for electric. Another 1/10th of a second isn't going to matter to most and to the people that it does they can buy a Plaid. At this point we are splitting hairs in straight-line speed. What most people want is to enjoy the experience, the entire experience not just the 0 to 100mph. That's generally saved for kids watching YouTube. The car also needs to stop and turn without cooking its brakes. Sound and smell are also part of the experience. I think this can be done with Hybrid tech if they figure out a way to do it without adding 500lbs.

 

I don't think anybody that is buying a Rimac is necessarily an eco-warrior. I mean, the LaFerrari is a hybrid - I think it was more thrilling than many a pure ICE Ferrari. I get to test drive the 296 in 2 weeks. So far my colleagues have been saying (not to mention the press) that it's just as thrilling as the F8 (if not more)

But what do we know...maybe we're just a bunch of greenies with an agenda.

The ironic thing though...it's the detractors that keep on bringing up the environment, safety, milage, heck, even towing ability...so we must be really good at hiding the truth; that really it's our own irrational biases that are coloring our objective view of the car.

 

I disagree, otherwise, the special editions would be moot.

We're still a long ways away from 'peak' performance.

As I said, thousandths of seconds will still count for folks that will drop millions on cars they don't plan to drive.

What can I say? I support a healthy Ferrari with a fat balance sheet.

 

I guess this is where we differ, I own some of these fast cars and have for years and I have many friends who do as well. I am speaking from real word experience and not from a hypothetical position.

My question to you is which of the cars in question have you owned or do you own that makes you so confident in your opinion about what enthusiasts want? What is your reference point?

 

The sales reports of Ferrari for the last 3 years.