the F40 is undervalued | Page 6 | FerrariChat

the F40 is undervalued

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by ross, Jun 1, 2019.

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  1. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Good for the kids, we live in the information age, and you'll be surprised how many people pay attention to detail and are quite knowledgeable, I find it quite refreshing that my son impresses me with his knowledge and attention-to-detail with cars.

    Back to values: there is a good reason why the 288 GTO the is worth what it's worth in the market (actually several million reasons), same with the F40, F50 et al. Based on recent trades I have made, and bearing in mind the production numbers, I don't expect any significant changes in the F40's value in the near future.
     
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  2. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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  3. rmolke85

    rmolke85 Formula Junior

    Mar 11, 2013
    748
    To me the F40 is the swan song for Enzo. That alone makes it the most important. It is also FIA homogated like the GTO and made it to Le Mans.

    Production numbers aside, Euro cars weigh roughly 2750 at the curb and have proven to vbox 100-200km in the same league as cars 20yrs younger. They really are ultra special.
     
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  4. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
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    Sep 1, 2010
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    Alberto Mantovani
    Yes, everything is correct and I agree. But also BB run at Le Mans (if I remenber correctly). The same did 308 GT4. And 308 GTB Gr. 4 homologated and tuned by Michelotto, raced and won much more than them all, F40 included.

    ciao
     
  5. rmolke85

    rmolke85 Formula Junior

    Mar 11, 2013
    748
    Correct, but there is a difference in that the F40 ran in what is today considered LMP1 or the top prototype class alongside the likes of the Mac F1. It raced for the whole enchilada. It’s from a special time.

    Race car for the road concept was never achieved with all of the other supercars from the brand. These raced as intended.
     
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  6. fbrs2

    fbrs2 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2012
    309
    UK
    The old girl can still put up a fight!


    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  7. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    For what? Model-appreciation threads are one thing, a thread explicitly stating that a car is undervalued in the thread's title followed by explicit arguments in favor of same by the OP is quite another. I've never ever done the latter, you have here, there's the difference.

    By the way I have a long & storied opposition to these type of threads, IMO they serve to have an adverse effect on the market, if anything.

    Meanwhile I think when you start a thread like this, you should expect all kinds of responses, some in agreement, some in disagreement, based on my intimate involvement with them in the market, I happen to disagree the F40 is undervalued, and the market underscores that view.

    No doubt about that, one of the reasons it's a very special car.
     
  8. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    joe, quit while you are ahead, and you and i are still friends, because at this stage you are just aggravating me.
    your choice.
     
  9. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Hey Ross, climb off your high horse, perhaps you're aggravated because I tell it like it is.

    Let's review your posts to me.

    First, you tell me you like me (I'm not sure why, you've never met me or done business with me, but thanks) but then proceed to say that my opinion (based on my experience as a specialist in these cars full-time) is self-serving BS. Nice touch.

    Next, you tell me its time for me to look in the mirror (for what?).

    Now, you instruct me to quit while I am ahead, and you say and I are still friends (I'm still not sure why), because at this stage I am just aggravating you (why, because I don't happen to agree with you?). My choice (or what?)

    I don't take kindly to having my intelligence insulted or respond well to ultimatums, try a nicer approach, this one isn't working for you.

    BTW, to be clear, I'm not bothered about winning friends via a popularity content, thats never been my thing, I prefer to focus on giving my clients the best professional service possible based on knowledge, experience and good value. Any friendships that result from my practice have been earned over years of trusted collaboration.

    Perhaps you've forgotten or don't realize it, but I actually make my living specializing in F40s and their values with some success, so perhaps I actually know what I'm talking about here.

    Moving on, this is bothering me:

    Why start a thread with a controversial & hypothetical topic like this, if you are not going to be receptive to experienced views which happen to be contrary to yours, and why insult the intelligence of someone who responds to the thread with thoughtful & accurate feedback for the benefit of all?

    Here's my view about this thread:

    Threads started by people suggesting that cars they own should be worth more (talking values up), are nothing new, perhaps they are to be expected on occasion, just are threads stating that cars should be worth less (talking values down) started by people who want to own that car.

    However, in this case, I'm puzzled when you claim are not a seller, and in fact don't really want values to go up, and furthermore, the reason you don't want values to go up is because your insurance would cost more. That makes no sense to me and here's why:

    Firstly, if you really don't want values to go up, it makes no sense to start a thread titled that the F40 is undervalued in the first place.

    Secondly, if you are not a potential seller, it makes no sense that you'd care what values are, up, down or sideways.

    Thirdly, an increase in value of, say, hundreds of thousands will only result in an increase in insurance premiums of a couple hundred, surely the latter is worth it for the the former? Increased insurance costs are a small fraction of increased value and it makes makes no sense to me that someone who owns a million-dollar F40 would even be bothered by a few hundred increase in insurance premiums if his car was worth hundreds of thousands more. Anytime I have appraised a car in my client's collection and advised them of the current value, if it was more than they had the car covered for, they were only too happy to contact their insurance company, adjust the value upwards, and pay the new premium. Pennies on the dollar.

    Bottom line, IMO, this thread won't conclude anything materially beneficial or relevant to the community.

    As regards F40 values, they are my profession, and I'm happy to debate them endlessly.
     
  10. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #135 ross, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
    well you chose badly.

    falsely accusing me of trying to raise f40 prices by starting a thread to discuss prices is uncalled for.
    i did not 'insult your intelligence'; i was debating with you and others.

    meanwhile, you try to divert the thread by just comparing the f40 to the 288, and almost only that car, repeatedly, - not really discussing the market over all, just expounding endlessly on only the origins and and virtues of the 288.
    we get it, your life is the 288, which is actually where you are a specialist and ply your trade, and obviously your goal is to enhance the value of the 288, hence my admonition to you to look in the mirror - whatever you think i am guilty of, you are guilty of many times over. and not only in this thread but multiple threads in this section over the years - you clearly push for 288 prices, but nobody calls you on it because it is your business and we understand where you are coming from. but what is clear is that YOU are the shill, not me.

    the past interactions i have had with you were on here in some threads, and then we exchanged some pm's about other questions. i bought your book, had you sign and personalize it as a gift to my father, which you did in a nice way. which is why i liked you, and had a favorable attitude towards you.

    but i must say that now after your behavior on this thread, and your baseless and unnecessary accusations and diatribes like the one above, you have indeed lost the positive attitude i had towards you, and you have also lost my respect - maybe others as well; do you really think that you have enhanced your reputation by haranguing?
    for somebody who makes their money selling these cars, not only do you need the knowledge about the cars, but you also need people to speak favorably about you. the only thing you have achieved now is that i certainly wont be buying any cars through Joe Sackey, and you can probably imagine that nobody who might ask me for advice on who to call about buying cars like this is going to be buying through Joe Sackey.

    you may not believe this to be a loss in any way, but frankly your lack of temperance and judgement is clearly displayed and will not be supportive of your business going forward.

    that was your ill considered choice.
     
  11. fbrs2

    fbrs2 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2012
    309
    UK
    FWIW my thoughts on wishing prices lower are principally so that I can buy more and continue to enjoy driving mine enthusiastically. You also saw them out and about and on track more often before prices really took off post GFC which I enjoy considerably more than static displays. Insurance, insurance related restrictions, insane parts costs, dealer bid/offer spreads all higher are a secondary issue. Personally I get zero enjoyment from the possibility I have a paper profit sat in the garage and even when I sold my 993GT2 and realised a profit I got zero enjoyment, none... I'm not doing this to make money, so if I can do it for less, even if that means a paper loss, then great.

    Lastly I agree with you re prices and the F40 looks fairly priced relative to it's rarer stablemates.
     
  12. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    Jun 12, 2007
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    As a future f40 buyer, this thread is illuminating. Let’s keep it on point. Thx.
     
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  13. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    this is one of those "expert" threads that easily gets in back and forth, but I thank Ross for initiating the topic and the analysis that has come out of it.
     
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  14. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    With high end prices coming down, ie LaF, P1, F12 TDF etc, wouldn’t the f40 also pull back a bit?
     
  15. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    maybe - maybe not. all of those cars are still going through the standard new model valuation curve. those cars are starting to run out of the I'll pay 50-100% over MSRP for the latest and greatest, well what are they worth after they aren't the latest and greatest?
     
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  16. willcrook

    willcrook Formula 3

    Feb 3, 2009
    2,129
    UK
    older cars aren't affected in the same way, especially ones which have already established their legacy.

    imo the tdf has been overpriced for awhile now at near £1m, it wasn't too long ago the 599 gto was £800k before softening a lot.

    the market is slow and asking prices of P1's don't seem to have changed much recently but there are quite a few people getting out of their cars due to fear of battery issues / maintenance costs, general brand depreciation and simply to quit whilst they're ahead (still trading over list)
     
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  17. rmolke85

    rmolke85 Formula Junior

    Mar 11, 2013
    748
    The F40 long term is just fine. The discussion here is good but to say anything today is under or overvalued is a falacy. They trade what they trade for at any given moment because that’s the market.

    They are legendary and a well tuned one will be as entertaining as can be for the rest of human history.
     
  18. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    You have zero ability to affect my business any more than I have to affect yours, I'm unfazed by your thinly-veiled threats, save them, again, try a nicer approach, as you say, I was very nice to you & your dad, so you'd have to figure that between then & now something must have happened.

    Nobody relies on one source as a referral for or against a particular specialist, potential clients just want the most knowledgeable person with the best contacts to deliver them the best car at the best price, period. They are not looking for Mr Nice Guy. In fact Ive had forum members become clients of mine because they thought I was no-nonsense and could negotiate well on their behalf. I'm all business. I have zero interest in working with everyone, I run a bespoke consultancy on an entirely Private Treaty business model, so I go to great lengths to pick my clients and am very selective about who they are and how we get along. This has been well established for years as I'm sure some people reading this can affirm. No worries, we have different approaches and different views, perhaps this thread was a test to make sure we don't do business together unhappily, so from that perspective, all is good. I chose very well to remain true to my principles.

    FWIW, I did not side-track the thread at all, I responded to someone else's claim in favor of the F40 that the GTO is different from the 308, and then repeatedly brought us back on topic to discuss the matter you have raised about the F40 being undervalued.

    You are incorrect that the GTO is my life, I sell twice as many F40s than GTOs, I also sell a fair number of F50s and Enzos, I sell a fair number of Miuras and carb Countachs, plus Porsches & other Supercars, all with equal enthusiasm and attention, so the GTO in fact takes up a fraction of my time.

    I'm not a shill, and to that point, unlike you, the only time I have started a thread with a title explicitly stating a car is undervalued is never. Based on it's title, the logical conclusion of anyone reading it is that thread was started to rally support in favor of talking prices up, as your first few posts went on to underscore.

    Let's get back to the F40 and whether it is undervalued or not, I'd love to debate that one for years.

    On the former thought, that's an astute observation, I have a number of clients in buying mode now whilst values are kind of flat.

    On the latter thought, you are right, the F40 is definitely great value now.

    Yes that's a valid thought although the F40 has already pulled back a bit in the last 2 years or so, so the current period does represent a good buying opportunity.

    This is quite true, the market for heritage cars behaves differently, it is in fact more stable compared to that of the .

    That's a good summation.
     
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  19. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    Jun 12, 2007
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    ^ Thx for the feedback. Wasnt long ago they were $1.2 and now about $1.4? Or have they pulled back? Not clear to me where transaction prices are.

    THX
     
  20. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    It depends on the car.

    The main F40 value factors are:

    Mileage - You'll pay the highest prices for a pristine original Classiched sub-2,500 miles car.

    Maintenance - This is key IMO, because the cars are @ 30 years, the difference between an F4 that has been meticulously & currently maintained is nigh and day, not to mention.

    Originality - This is a big one, the market favors original paint & interior and unmodified cars with good reason.

    Condition - This is key also.

    There are lots of cars out there that ask prices that their condition & provenance doesn't warrant, and it's key to be able to know this, it's all about buying the right car for you at the right price.

    If you get to the point of getting ready to buy, just call me on the phone and we'll speak F40s in general, I'm old-school I like to speak to the individual I'm helping in person.
     
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  21. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    glad to see you agree with me after all that...... ;)
     
  22. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Sorry I don't agree F40s are undervalued, values are what they should be, in this case as the data shows, values are flat, as in level or stable.
     
  23. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie

    Jan 19, 2014
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    If there is anything this thread has proven to me is that F40s are in fact not undervalued. :)

    Some good comments from prior and current owners that was very insightful, so thank you for that.
     
  24. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    'On the latter thought, you are right, the F40 is definitely great value now.'
     
  25. nis1973

    nis1973 Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2013
    484
    NYC/CT
    Let me start by saying that I don’t own an F40 and am not in the market for one so I have no direct interest in F40s going up, down or staying unched.

    Joe, is it possible that the thread is just an expression of an owner’s enthusiasm for their car? He paid a lot of money for the car so he’d better be biased. Owners of any car are self-selected — yes, they have enough money to buy it but they are also the ones that, amongst the many more people who can afford said car, like it the most. If you bought/own a car and aren’t biased in its favor you are doing something wrong. For better or worse market values are perceived as a measure of a car’s intrinsic worth so it doesn’t seem crazy that an owner would think that their car is not sufficiently appreciated (because they are amongst those that appreciate it the most) and for this reason is also undervalued. Owners of any car out there tend to feel that their cars are undervalued, whether it’s a 1950s Mondial, a 1980s Mondial, or a 1990s Mustang. You are an enthusiast but also a businessman so I’d expect you to have a more analytical view of market values. If I were in the market for an F40 I’d ask for your opinion rather than that of an owner. I’m totally cool, though, with owners waxing lyrical about the attributes of their cars, and, because we live in a very materialistic society, the market value that those perceived attributes should imply. Perhaps you should allow for this possibility too.
     
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