The official MP4-12C Thread

There is definitely merit to your strategy (UK first, etc.) but I think also we may not know the full details of how the financing has been arranged and the ROI time horizon that the investors expect. That could be a factor.

With regards to the ups and downs, yes, it seems I have some appetite for anything that is new and exciting. I also joined Monticello Motor Club a few years back as a founding member, when everybody on the forums was predicting they would never make it past the first season. Well, they are making a pretty solid go of it, though challenges still exist I am sure before they are "out of the woods". So, yeah, you need a bit of a stomach to get involved in these things, but the rewards come in being able to participate in a lot of stuff that is outside of the everyday norm. I'm hoping the McLaren ownership experience will provide the same.

 

Very informative thread! Took me a lot of time to parse through some banter and puffery but that's to be expected amongst a largely type A personality group. I'm considering a slot for a late fall build but I'm not 100% settled on a number of key factors:

1. Looks. Everyone can stare at pictures and videos but sitting in the car, evaluating the angles with your naked eye means a lot.

2. The driving feel. Again, videos by Evo and others is great but I cannot imagine buying a new car by a somewhat untested producer of "limited mass market" cars without feeling it myself.

3. Dealer information. While doing the best they can, it seems local dealers are scrambling for legitimate answers to legitimate questions. If I was ordering a Ferrari in April/May for an October/november build, I'd have answers to a lot of current unknowns.

4. Early model revisions? My fear in ordering now versus ordering in early 2012 is that it seems inevitable that mclaren will make stylistic and possibly functional changes in short order.

As far as passion and soul of a Ferrari, I have owned multiple varieties of every Ferrari built since 2000. I have surfed in and out of them without truly finding that "soul" that everyone talks about. Currently I own a 599 with hgte upgrade. Just sold my 458 knowing I have a scud variety slot once they announce it. Who knows when that will be or what it will produce. But one thing is for sure; it will be expensive. My 458 was $270k. The spider will inevitably be $310kish. So the scud will most likely be $350ish. That's a lot more than the mclaren!

Sorry to ramble but seems like a lot of variables in deciding whether to order the mclaren now versus waiting until early 2012

 

I spec'd out a 458 the other day and the cheapest reasonably optioned car came out to about 265. I fully expect the spider to be 20 grand more than that -- maybe 25. So, I'm budgeting 300 (plus tax/license of course).

But, when you get to this level, nothing really make sense anymore. You're going to buy what really excites you. If that's the 12C, that's great. If it's a 458 spider, so be it.

I don't really think money is much of an issue. It's really what makes you happy at this point. If you looked at the money, you'd never even consider either.

 

Well put Bob, by the way, I am assuming your going to hold out for the Spider?

 

I don't worry about the money...clearly given the amount I've lost on cars in my life. However, the mclaren offers an interesting price point that brings the 458 scud into question IMO. In 1 year, the 430 scud lost almost $100k in value. Whether you profess to care about money or not, that isn't chump change. Will the value devaluation be the same with the 458 scud?

So, when mclaren releases a car that rivals the 458 at a lesser price point, it should offer some pause. Money or not

 

This is great news. 10k for all 4, means just 2.5k per rotor, this is not far off steel. This makes CCB's a no-brainer.

 

Joe Mac

I am in complete agreement with you on all points.

1. Have just seen the car, heard it start up, sat inside and still think the styling is less than it could and should be

2. Have not driven one and am nervous about $270k without a test drive. Heard different timelines from May to July from the dealer before that is available

3. I'm in agreement and posted that a few pages back that getting a 12C now makes me nervous a re-styled version might show up within 1-2 years making the value of the current style take a nose dive.

4. Like one of the others posted some time back, I'm considering postponing my dec 2011 delivery to a march 2012, so at least I have driven the car, some of the early US cars have already been delivered in August and the bugs worked out.

 

I'm assuming you mean not far off steel once you take into account how often you torch the steel rotors. But yeah, it makes the option make a lot more sense.

 

Agree, the price of these things is plain stupid. In fact, anything more expensive than a 911 Turbo is kinda ridiculous if you ask me, for a car. And when you spend this much, it gets you even more still when it comes to the options b/c you think "well I'm already spending ..." !!!

The sidebar in the Evo or Top Gear article references a plan McLaren has to preserve resale values. Not sure quite what that could even be and definitely have not heard anything else about it. Anybody else know what they might be referring to?

 

I definitely would not treat any re-styling as a given or even a strong possibility for that matter. It would not be a trivial matter and would go against the engineering ethos of the product. Maybe there may be very slight changes but I really can't see any significant re-design happening. Had McLaren really believed they gaffed, they have had ample time to re-style before launch and they have not taken that opportunity. The form follows function with this car, and you either like it or you don't but I wouldn't hold my breath for a substantial change.

 

Sure, CCB's will last 4-6 times as long on the track as steel. if you throw in the lack of fade (on the other hand they offer a tad less feel), plus the rotors being actually quite a bit bigger (and the disadvantage of the unsprung weight), I think on balance, it makes sense to spend the extra 13k.

So great news all round, except one small thing: I am hearing this piece of info here, instead from my dealer.

 

Thanks for the video Tony!

= = = =

McLaren Automotive brought out one of their Validation Prototypes and a rolling chassis to Cars&Coffee in Irvine, California this morning. I took about 150 pics of the pair you can cycle through via this link:

McLaren MP4-12C visits Cars&Coffee

Probably nothing new for most of the people paying attention here, especially if you've already seen the car in person.

It was great for me to finally see the car in person. I was a little iffy on it from the initial studio shots released back in September 2009, but it grew on me quickly and 'in the metal' I found it to be a sharp looking car with a lot of presence. It's not wild like some prefer their supercars to be but I think that suits McLaren's style, that the design will age well and it is a good building block for future products while still carrying over a few elements from McLaren's past.

The people who are lucky enough to put their names on the list for this car should have no regrets.

>8^)
ER
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I hope you're correct. I'm most likely still taking the plunge but am nervous.

 

If you are really that nervous about the styling aspect, I would spend some time seeking out the layperson's take on the car, rather than here on fchat where we are all hyper-critical of any new car's design, even Ferraris which we love. For example I monitor the twitter feed for mp4-12c and the car gets all the supercar reactions you would expect i.e. "which bank can I rob so I can buy the new McLaren" or "I would give my left testicle", etc. There is no doubt in my mind that when people start seeing this car on the road, in traffic, the very last term to come to mind will be "bland". Understated compared to the Italia or a Lambo, sure. But you can't mistake it for anything other than a supercar.

 

Why does everyone think that if they build a car with the latest and greatest, and with performance that tops Ferrari, then they will beat Ferrari? Seriously, Ferraris are much loved because they feel great. Ferraris are not so much about the latest tech and best performance numbers, although Ferrari does try to give you those to keep up appearances, but they are all about the feel. You are not going to beat Ferrari until you build a car that feels greeaatt.

Not one upstart has even bothered to try to out feel Ferrari. The NSX was great but drove like a Civic and the Gallardo looks great but still needs work on the feel, and going by what Clarkson and Harris say, it seems the new McLaren has not bettered Ferrari in the feel department. Perhaps making a car that feels as a great as a Ferrari requires decades of expertise, and as such, the upstarts, cannot possibly produce something with better feel than a Ferrari because they have not been building entry-level supercars long enough.

I am not trying to bash this new McLaren, but I am frustrated that no one bothers to out feel Ferrari when they try to go toe to toe with Ferrari. They don't need to copy the Ferrari feel exactly and try to give a you better version of it, but they should try to give you a feel that is their own, but better than the feel of a Ferrari. For once I'd like to read an article where the Ferrari betters its rival performance wise, but the journo chooses the rival because it feels so much better.

 

I'm not sure I fully understand what your saying. If your asking why media and manufacturers compare themselves to Ferrari it is the same reason soda makers try to outdo Coke; fast food companies try to outdo mcdonalds .....when your product is considered the acme of the marketplace, you're going to draw comparison.

What makes me upset is how people on fchat take almost personal affront to people saying the mclaren is better then the ferrari. If that's their opinion, so be it. I don't try to convince a lesbian to turn heterosexual and i'm never going to state you're an idiot for wanting the 12C over a 458.

 

To get back to topic, thanks for the many responses to my earlier posts. It's clear that those who have already ordered their cars have gone through the same issues and roadblocks I'm going through now. I'm in a unique position because I'm able to get an Early build slot but I have to act quickly.

The question for those who ordered. What's the upside to being the first to market with the car? Other than having it first (something I have a major weakness to doing), doesn't it carry a lot of negatives?

 

That's a great question. Some of us have been tracking the development of this car literally from its inception several years ago and thus have already been waiting quite a long time. I know for myself, I have passed on some incredible cars (430 scud, ZR-1, GT3/2 RS, R8 V10) because the 12C was intriguing enough for me to wait. Now that the details about the performance are becoming available, the car looks like it will surpass my long-held expectations, so I am definitely going to stick with an early spot. I suspect that once the Ring time is revealed, there will be another massive frenzy of attention and many vacated waiting list spots will be quickly grabbed up.

Beyond that, I am not old, but certainly not getting any younger and believe less and less in waiting, in general. The one caveat- I will wait to buy an F40 until I have the time to truly enjoy one every single weekend (and every single day if I can get away with it!).

 

Honestly man, this debate has been raged and exhausted in every conceivable form already in the Italia section. In fact this thread in the British section was started specifically to get away from the arguing that ensued.

 

Dude, those are awesome photos. Thanks for uploading and posting the Flickr link.
p.s. I still get goosebumps when I see the carbon tub. Man I'm such a geek!

 

I don't like the exterior design at all, but deep down inside this car is amazing !
Plus... I just realized that the price is VERY competitive.

 

Thanks - and yes, the rolling chassis was very cool to stick your head inside of. I wish it had a bit more guts about it - like if they'd just brought a fairly complete car without any body panels.

Here's some new videos:

MotorWorldHype - Interview with Lynne Arciero of McLaren Automotive:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On1hJkx5dec[/ame]

RedRyderMedia - 12C walkaround:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JScmG4j8t8w[/ame]

Frank4Cars - 12C walkaround in 4 parts:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OReAh1SAMjE[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPgtTuENkwQ[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhNAwKuuMxI[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKxZ3Eb2s9M[/ame]

>8^)
ER

 

Great to see the rolling chassis out in the wild! Great photos!!! Thanks for posting!

You and me both!!

 

This is pure speculation on my part (yes, that's a warning!) but I'm wondering if IRIS and potential future upgrades has something to do with the plan to preserve resale values that was referenced in the Top Gear article. I can't quite figure it out, but there have been a few indications now that point to something quite significant that McLaren has yet to reveal about the car. Goodwin's comments about the track setup/GPS do line up with Anthony Sheriff's early comments about IRIS, but that by itself I don't think is a resale-value preserving feature as most customers are not track-oriented. Methinks something else may be going on (or perhaps was planned but now scrapped).

What is interesting about the engineering choices they made for the car is that you could transform it into a Scud version quite easily without needing to buy a new car. i.e. the factory could authorize an in-warranty ECU flash to give more boost/hp. Also, we know that carbon fibre body panels were ditched due to the cost/performance metric, but replacing them would save considerable weight- and this is something that could be easily done because the body is not load-bearing due to the carbon tub. Throw in the the lightweight sport seats (that were originally supposed to be an option but have now mysteriously disappeared) and voila, you have turned your 12C into a next-gen model without buying a new car. This would definitely keep resale values very high as they would have an instantaneous response to the 458 Scud when it comes out, or the new Gallardo, etc. The downside, for McLaren, is that they would get revenues from the upgrade package only, not from selling an entirely new car. But, if they really do have some sort of plan for resale values, that could be it. Again, this is pure speculation and based solely on various data points I have observed.

 

i like your train of thought, i am still wonering why they have made the iris mandatory?Is this just your dealer,or is it also in the US,because at the moment its still an option for the UK.I would have thought that if your suggestion above was in their minds it would have been the biggest selling point in automotive history,so why not let us know from the start!
i think what is more likely is that they keep a models variation to a mimimum,also the production to 1000 per year worldwide,with the best performance,so more people want them than there are to go around,I had this situation with porsche in the 80,s,you could run one for 3 years and nearly get your money back.it goes without saying that you had to watch out for the next new model in 6 years time ,so timing is the most important thing,
But i really hope you are right