The official MP4-12C Thread

It's possible. It makes sense to do a world car. But two reservations. The Mclaren press release made it a point to say that the specs applied to Euro cars only.

http://www.carsuk.net/mclaren-mp4-12c-performance-press-release/

The second reservation could be worthless, but it was rumored they were still fettling the car for US homolgation, implying that there'd be some differences.

Regarding the top Ferraris--even Ferrari's own entry cars were starting to eclipse them. The Nissan GTR was outperforming some big cars.

 

Well, I disagree that Ferrari is synonymous with top performance. Near the top? Yes. On top? I doubt anyone would say that who ever bought one.

There's a connection with the Ferrari brand that goes far deeper than performance. There's a connection with Lamborghini that's deeper than performance. There's no connection with McLaren aside from them being fast, British, and having an F 1 team of which few Americans care about or know their rather distinguished history.

Am I being negative? No, I think I'm being honest. These things have to be overcome for McLaren to have long term success.

 

Originally Posted by bdelp View Post
There were faster and arguably better cars than the 308, 328, 348, 355, 360, and 430 when they were in the market -- and yet they still sold. The 911 was a ton better than the Dino gt.

The McLaren F 1 is far, far faster than the Enzo which came out years after it. It didn't matter then and it doesn't today. Both are highly praised and appreciated. I don't remember anyone saying about the Enzo, "well I'm not buying one because the F 1 is so much better."

Anyway, you guys asked why I'm so interested so im giving you the answer. It's because I think they are going to have a long term problem and I'm trying to figure out what they've done wrong so far (IMO, not aggressive enough styling) and how they are going to get
around the obvious problem of expanding the market.

I spoke with the local dealer who believes, as I do, that McLaren gets the styling issue and will make the appropriate changes. The only question is when will they re-style the 12C and how will that impact the resale value of the older style. He had suggested a 2 year, but I'm thinking 3 year period of ownership to stay ahead of the curve. I guess they could always redesign the 12C before that but I'm betting they don't.

In all fairness bdelp, it sounds like you should drive both the 458 and the 12 C if you want to base all of your arguments on performance.

 

Fair enough. That's why I was asking if anyone will have a demo available. I'm not the only one.

BTW: I'm not 100% sold on the 458 yet either. I'm waiting to see what the 458 spider looks like because my F430 spider is IMO more fun to drive than a 458 coupe.

And I would not consider a Mac until they have a spider and it looks better. Yes, I'm a poser. But most exotic owners are.

 

We are starting to go back and forth with the same points over and over again, but explain to me why Ferrari is so anal about winning all those tests if it's about much more than performance?

As to being negative/honest, it truly does not bother me one bit. I don't care much about the future of Ferrari or McLAren as such. I just hope they keep pushing each other. I am not attached to one make or another. No deep connection here.

 

Come to think about it, they cannot be the same weight at basic spec level. For example, the US model will have standard leather dash. No huge difference, but here we go.

 

Of course they will have demos for interested parties to drive and yes, the dealer would love us to pony up deposits and place orders to spec cars sooner rather than later. They are salesmen after all but I am in complete agreement with you on the point that the 12C should be driven along with the 458 in order to make a fair driving comparison before buying either one...that's of course if you are interested in choosing between them. If this means a 2012 delivery of the 12C, I've already told my dealer...I'm OK with that. I'm not going to order one sight unseen (no driving experience) so to speak.

As for 458 styling...it is better than the 12 C but not by much. Look at the heads up comparison on the original thread where I posted both cars in black which IMHO makes both the 458 and the 12C looks its best. In this forum others have posted...cars that appear better in darker colors do so because they hide some aspect of the car's styling. I have no experience with which to judge that argument but I don't care for the 458 in any of the lighter colors.

 

You are certainly not a poser at all in my eyes. I've read lots of your posts, you have a Ferrari 430 spyder, I believe and you make very valid and intelligent points.

 

I'm not trying to bother you or anybody. I didn't even want to get on this subject but I was asked.

I just want you guys to know that if I ask questions, it's simply because I am curious and not being provacative.

And some of my questions may never be answered. Choosing what car to buy is a personal thing. Some people bought Pontiac Aztecks. Who am I to say they're wrong?

Friends?

 

Friends? Yes, but there will be blood .

 

Friends and no blood

 

I have every interest in buying one. Its the only car I have seen in years that has any fascination to me since the R-8 and that frankly was a touring car. The is an economy Supercar. Only problem is that business is slow. No Mclaren for me right now

As far as brand recognition yes it may have a problem with those in the GQ fashion statement crowd. Any self respecting car guy would be shamed not to know what Mclaren is about.

The market is enamoured with technology and not in just this car. Ferrari uses it as a sales tool when it can which is not often since it lags. The last innovative thing they did was the F1 tranny.

I think there is a lot of bitterness in the Ferrari crowd because Maranello was sleeping at the wheel as far as car developement. The next 4X8 will finally be carbon. Watch.
Until then the anti-Mclaren angst will rely on "passion", exhaust note, and styling insults to carry the day.
And when Ferrari finally does catch up Mclaren will just chip the car and take off once again.

 

How did this turn into a F458 Vs. MP4 thread Part II? LOL.

I think most of us who can afford these type of cars have the same questions as bdelp. For one reason or another we are more interested in the Mp4 when compared to the F458. I drove a F458(a good friend of mine got one). I found many aspects impressive but I found as many little issues(front end, steering wheel, interior, weight, over boosted steering) with it that would probably drive me crazy if I bought one.

Finally, I am not a Poseur(live in a small town with no special places to valet etc), am more of racing guy and the kind that likes the underdog new kid who is working hard to get some of the market. I also don't care for the Ferrari guys who dress up in Ferrari red clothes, shoes, socks, hat, watches. I quickly realized that I am definitely not a Tifosi. So the McLaren kinda connects with me more. Does that mean I am buying one? I am still on the fence but definitely leaning towards the MP4. Now if they would just come up with a better name.....LOL.

 

PS; Mine would be Mclaren orange and black Alcantara throughout. Black stock wheels.
No other options.
With the money "saved" on options I can get another Formula Mazda or a Lotus Super Seven.

 

One thing Ferrari definatly knows how to do is sales/marketing.
One can buy a 458, drive it awhile, and resell it for break even. Impossible with almost any other make.
For Ferrari its the norm.
Good for them and I mean that.

But Mclaren could call their car Suzy and I'd still be bonzo over it.
Hey how about 459 !?

PS; NSXluvr you know Gordon Murray used the NSX as the benchmark when designing the F1, right ?
Great minds think alike; mines a minty early 91.

 

Definitely, no hard feelings! I think your suggestion for this thread was a good one, let's hope that any newcomers can approach it with a modicum of respect that was clearly lost in the other threads. And yes, I did ask the question and therefore would never try to play thread police - you are free to post your opinion as many times as you like. I just honestly wondered if you have some type of vested interest in McLaren not succeeding, because of the relentlessness of your opposition and the number of times you have repeated yourself on all the McLaren threads. Even if you did have some ulterior motive, like I said, free forum, free speech.

However, here is why I think you are wrong:

During my business career, primarily as an entrepreneur, I have been involved in many start-up ventures - some my own companies and sometimes as part of larger organizations. As I'm sure many of us here know, many factors play a part in the success of any new venture. From my personal experience, the two most important requirements are-

1- A competitive product: Your product must be able to compete with the best of what is on offer to customers. Even if you have very deep pockets, you cannot fund an inferior product in perpetuity. However, if the product is competitive, you have the flexibility to experiment with your marketing, refine your message and generally find out what works. Customers will give you extra time because the product performs. Now, if you have an outstanding product - the best available - then you may acquire the power to dictate change in the industry. Nothing will make the incumbent players change their roadmap faster than losing some sales that they assumed were pre-ordained. With regards to the 12C, my local dealer is experiencing similar customer response as Krzys is reporting and I expect we will see similar response around North America. Yes, I know your whole argument is what about year 2 and 3, etc. But, as a new venture, you can only put yourself in the best position possible to succeed. With this type of response, there is no reason for McLaren to wait. It is clear to me that there are literally thousands of customers who believe that the product is not only competitive, but most likely outstanding.

2- A disciplined and focused management team: You can never predict what will happen in a new venture with any level of accuracy. I never write a full business plan (unless it is required for financing or some other objective), because by the time you finish it, it is outdated and irrelevant. Instead, the energy should be spent on short-term execution and re-evaluation, over and over again. Even talent can be overrated- if it is not applied in a disciplined way, it is wasted. Unyielding focus can also overcome bad timing. My own last software startup was launched in 1999- a few months later the Internet bubble burst. The company adjusted course, stayed focused and went on to be very successful. In McLaren, I see a company and management team that is hell-bent on execution and re-evaluation. Really, I think this is as attractive to me as the bloody car. Ron is obviously a pinnacle of discipline and he realizes that trait is what has allowed him to be so successful in his business career. The more that the organization embodies that persona, the better.

In no way do I view McLaren as an organization that has haphazardly stumbled into attempting the impossible, looking through rose coloured glasses as they say. Rather, I see a company that recognizes an opportunity and, more importantly, is confident in its product and ability to navigate the market.

 

Congrats! Sounds like an awesome spec.
What is under the leather on the dash anyway?

 

Seriously, that looks phenomenal!! Please PM me the high-res versions if you read this, thanks!

 

John Delorean was confident too. He was considered the BEST brain in the auto business.

He failed.

He had a plan. He had financing. He had unbelievable free PR. He had the backing of an entire government.

I'm not saying Mac will end up the same way. I'm just saying it ain't that easy and I'm trying to figure out how they are going to get around the problems

I'm going to stop now because I can see from the sarcasm in a few posts that some don't approve of asking questions about this car or car maker from someone not smitten with it's every detail.

 

From Mclaren website

In the standard 12C interior, the dash and surrounding surface are trimmed with a textured fabric that is 35% lighter than leather and available in 3 colours. To complement this, we developed a unique, lightweight 3D-effect Space Fabric. Available in four distinctive shades and used on the door insert panels and seat inners.

 

That's for European cars. In the US, leather dashboard is standard. I am trying to get them to replace it with the technical fabric like in Europe. Don't ask me why.

 

Thanks. I look at those specs, all this jewelry I ordered and I am thinking that's so dumb, but what the hell.

 

Nah, you did it right. If you go with one of the Oranges, you gotta black it out!

 

I have a bunch of Ferrari trinkets. The best is this super-obnoxious yellow Ferrari Driving Experience t-shirt. I think that's what I am gonna wear to pick up my McLaren.

 

Interested. PM sent. Thanks, in-advance!