The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Biggie!!! ... arch is too wide too.

Easy fix ...

The first point indicates that #0846's tail was not a 100% 'standard' P4 tail ... if there was such a thing, OR #0858's tail was/is different.

Jim, just make sure when you demonstrate the 'hammer' that nobody stands behind you

Pete

 

Is it me, or does the car in the b/w photo appear to have a shorter w/b?? Maybe it's just that the top of the rear fender sweeps upward more quickly...

 

The perspectives in the photos are different.. The lower curve isn't the same but it looks like there is some sheetmetal that needs to be trimmed, maybe it's not complete yet.

 

If w/b = wheelbase you are a very funny man Dr. ... ROFL

Not sure Jim would find this as amusing as me though ...

If the rear fender does sweep up different, and it looks so to me (and others), er, this is a major change ... I hope I am wrong for Jim's sake.

Pete

 

That's the point of the photo's. That's before we moved it forward to it's correct position and "Fixed" (Changed the roll hoop to match 0846's which "corrected" the arc of the fenders as well). The tail hinges at the top. when you open it it swings in an arc. The part where clearance is a problem is the rear edge of the lower forward bottom of the tail. The P4 step up is a clever solution and after fitting a P4 tail to 0846 Ferrari figured that out but you can still get clearance and keep the P3 door shut line two ways as Ferrari did before they went to the step up on the later cars. On the 412P's they kept the longer P3 wheelbase which pushes the rear wheel back 12mm from that critical point. On 0846 they shortened the wheelbase (WB not W/B) 12mm to P4 spec. when they dropped a P4 engine into 0846 so they had to push the entire tail forward, into the space created by that modification (Post 979) to get clearance to allow the tail to open it that arc.

Piper as Pete said was a racer. When he owned 0003/0846 he use her to test F1 Tires so he went to wider wheels and tires and wanted more rubber to race with (350 Can Am/512S/m not P4/412P size). He was often extremely inelegant,hacking up bodies, adding crude flares etc.
HE ALSO USED A P4 STEPPED UP TAIL. HE THEREFORE WOULD HAVE NOT HAD TO MAKE MODIFICATION 979.

Getting the fender line correct and the roll hoop correct required surgery but we tried to do it more elegantly using a cutter, hammer, and torch. We're quite pleased with the results and it now looks correct. By the time we got 0858's P4 tail Piper and others had over 50 pounds of Bondo on it. We took that off as well.

 

Inelegant Piper Body Work Modification. (412P 0854)
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Ah, OK....the front part of the front fenders look rather bulbous in the b/w photo too.....must be the angle from which that photo was taken

 

No getting over it. One has only to check 2 major websites to find HUNDREDS of sighting reports concerning Bigfoot.

Please direct me to even ONE single report of SOMEBODY, ANYBODY who claims to have seen the chassis of 0846 transported from the Ferrari factory, or to the Modena junkyard, or ANY junkyard, or retreived from ANY junkyard, and taken to ANY chassis maker's shop, or then taken possession by Piper, or anybody else for that matter.

Somebody? Anybody? ANYWHERE? ANY TIME??? ANYBODY??????
One claim? One sighting? One rumor?

ANYTHING AT ALL????

(nothing but crickets chirping...........)

 

What part of something that you claim to have read (Page 21 & 22) don't you understand?

 

Yes, I've read all this before. And I just read it again to verify that no clear cut trail of documentation exists. A second hand party says that Tom said that he, Tom, threw out some parts into a junkyard. And from that second hand tale, we can jump to the wild conclusion that one of the chassis was 0846, that it survived it's trip from Tom's junkyard to another junkyard, that it was miraculuously saved by yet ANOTHER unknown third party, and made it's way to some chassis maker working on Piper's behalf?

Pretty amazing that Tom cared so little about the chassis that he tossed it into a scrapyard, yet he amazingly remembered EXACTLY which serial number that it was according to Patrick Faucompre.

How could he remember which serial number it was, if it had no serial number on it???????

(By the way,..."Patrick Faucompre" on page 21 of the document is spelled "Patrick Fornchamp" on page 22 of the document". Are they one in the same? If a name can get easily twisted across 2 pages of the same document, I certainly believe that an unwanted old racer car chassis could be hauled away to the dump and melted into cat food cans, never to be seen again after 38 years of time.)

 

Luigi: "Bossa saysa toa throwa 0846a outa"
Tom: "OKa"

 

One again you are wrong. This time you are not even able to read your own question:

"Somebody? Anybody? ANYWHERE? ANY TIME??? ANYBODY??????
One claim? One sighting? One rumor?

ANYTHING AT ALL????"

Are you still unable to understand that the document you claim to have read on the pages I directed you to cites two?

"How could he remember which serial number it was, if it had no serial number on it???????"

You know for a fact that the chassis Patrick spoke of didn't have stampings at that point?

Marcel mentioned stampings to Mark as being there in 1977.

Patrick unlike you was there and he stands by his statement. (One of the two you claim don't exist)

Mark recently sent me a copy of the exact email he received from Marcel.
My read is that Marcel thought that he saw the remains of 0846 in 1977 do you read this email differently?

"I did NOT personally witness the remains of 0846 at Piper's BUT I did
personally witness the remains of 0846 at a totally different location,
namely in Switzerland, NOT in England at Piper's!!! That Swiss location was
an old warehouse of Franco Sbarro located in the village of Grandson, on the
shores of Lake Neuchâtel, Switzerland, opposite George Filipinetti's Castle
at Grandson. At the time of my visit in Grandson I did see remains plus I
was shown the Carnet de Douane (Customs paperwork) for serial number 0846.
The Carnet de Douane was in the name of a company named "Cervan
Corporation". I have no proof if Franco Sbarro or David Piper or anybody
else owned Cervan Corporation at that time.


Marcel Massini"

Now Arlie why don't you answer a question so people can judge for themselves if anything you say should be taken seriously.

Do you believe in Bigfoot?

 

Well then, with all of these sightings it shouldn't be too hard for SOMEBODY, ANYBODY to produce a Bigfoot skeleton?

But no, in our recorded history not one has been found. Aside from plaster foot casts, grainy video of a guy in a costume and second-hand accounts you have nothing tangible to base your beliefs on.

Conversely, Jim has (imo) the remains of 0846. How many people saw it before it was turned into 0003? Maybe hundreds, but either they had no idea what they were looking at or simply didn't care. It was an old, broken chassis from a racecar that didn't exist anymore.

David ordered some new chassis' to be built, a lightbulb went off somewhere and he was duped into paying full pop for a recycled platform. Even for someone aware of it's history, the total worth of 0846 at that time was less than that of a new chassis.

 

Bigfoot has FIRST HAND accounts by the hundreds and filmed evidence that has never been DISPROVEN by anybody.

Yet the 0846 theory is believed by many; all based on SECOND hand accounts of UNverified frames sent to a junkyard, wild speculative tales about mystery scrap yard pickers carting away the remains to some undefined chassis shop for some alleged late night rewelding in order to sell Piper a rebuilt chassis that he was allegedly too involved to notice. Toss in some first hand sightings of "PAPERWORK" in a Swiss customs house years later. (it's anybody's guess as to what the CAR actually had stamped on its frame)

Maybe that frame was shipped from the Modena junkyard in 1968 to the Swiss customs house in 1977 by a guy wearing a costume with giant plywood feet strapped to his shoes. As long as we're manufacturing tall tales, might as well make it a BIG one.

 

The second photo appeared to be corrupted, so I corrected it in Photoshop.

>8^)
ER
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Why the dark blotch over the driver's face?

 

Have you seen one? If not, it's second-hand.

Nice wording, BTW.. "never been disproven" is much different than "has been proven". Please show me the non-blurred photos, an autopsy and a timeline chronicling Bigfoot's evolutionary history.

I don't put much faith into these accounts.. I've been around just long enough to know how verbal accounts can be skewed over time. At some point it left the Ferrari shop, bounced around at a few others and fell into the right hands at the right time. You've got people profiting off it, people who are uninterested and others who are completely oblivious. Going back almost 30 years and trying to put the pieces together is pretty much useless.

Arlie, if you happened to stumble upon an unsigned canvas that bears a striking resemblance to Van Gogh's work, how would you go about finding out if it was actually his? Obviously it was from his little-known trip to Little Rock, and anybody around at the time has long since passed. It was kept in some old lady's basement (who's mother bought it from a street vendor) and it was sold to you at an estate sale. No paperwork, but it sure is nice to look at.

You'd look for paint colors, brush strokes, and composition. Going even further, there's canvas size & type- maybe even Xray and carbon date it. Is there the chance that this is a master forgery that was planted? Sure, but why would someone go through that much trouble for absolutely zero profit?

IMO, the above is the type of thinking you should apply to 0846. You're basically insisting that a 140 year-old man come out of the woodwork and verify that Van Gogh produced the painting.

 

Dunno - maybe he's really ugly.

Sorry... I'll go back to eating popcorn now.

>8^)
ER

 

Since I am not invloved in the debate... here you go... 0846 at the Nurburgring 1966...

Photo credit: Eric della Faille. Please respect the copyright.
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But a Van Gogh painting is NOT, nor was it EVER, a modern mechanical object manufactured in a factory and assigned a serial number for research and development purposes, insurance purposes, racing registration purposes, etc. Your Van Gogh painting would be subjected to the same strict standards that all other valuable paintings would be subjected to. And consequently, an alleged 0846 Ferrari should be subjected to the same standards that all other valuable cars are subjected to. Serial number tags, serial number stampings, undeniable trail of ownership or junkyard provenance, etc.
How can one site a piece of 1977 customs house paperwork with a serial number on it as "proof" then turn right around and ignore the absense of a serial number on the car itself?
Why are we suddenly to make exception for a claim of 0846 arising from its ashes like a miracle Phoenix, yet absent of any numbers or provenance that all before it are required to possess? Because we merely WISH that it COULD happen like we wish that some anthropologist is going to "forensically document" a scrap of bone into BECOMING the skeleton of a Bigfoot creature???
They've ALREADY done DNA tests of numerous hair samples and have PROOF that they belong to no known species. But I don't see anybody announcing that Bigfoot has been PROVEN to exist in the eyes of the mainstream scientific community.
Has 0846 been PROVEN to exist in the eyes of the mainstream Ferrari community? I think the answer is no.

 

WYSIWYG

Sliding plexiglas side window, to save weight.

 

But which one is this?

BOAC 500, 1967.

0860 judging by the race number...

Correct?

Photo credit: Geoffrey Goddard. Please respect the copyright.
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As a theoretical physicist, I can tell you that EVERYTHING is perception. Jim's car is perceived to be 846 because logically and rationally it can not be anything else but that. Present another theory that is as logical and rational, and I think everyone here will be willing to consider it...

 

at the end of the day, the car is a beautiful recreation and not the real thing no matter how you look at it

 

If the car has the real chassis then by law it is the real thing.

That is how it works for any car, even yours and mine .
Pete