The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

It's actually Bigfoot driving.. shhh!

 

Oh dear, it has returned, right on time, with the start of another long boring shift at the nuthouse....tilting at windmills, citing bigfoot, cabbage, Small block Chevy's, the American Numismatic Society and other wanderings of the mind. Let's focus in on what people are attempting to discuss here, namely Ferrari serial # 0846. Horsey, you are asking for proof or a chain of custody that will never materialize. This is what is known as a circumstantial case. The fact that it will never materialize, does not make something untrue. Plenty of convicted felons know this fact. Yes, it is true that JG cannot place Luigi, Antonio, or Tom Meade for that matter, in the junkyard with the smoking gun...er chassis in his hand. However, a plausible circumstantial case can be made for the continued existence of chassis 0846 and its subsequent reuse for the construction of a new/old car for DP. JG has laid out that circumstantial case, based on chassis drawings, measurements of the car in question, matching damage, etc. Ultimately, the market place will decide the legitimacy and value of this car and its place in history, not you or I. It is my belief that regardless of whether this car is the exact same collection of mechanical parts that made its was around Le Sarthe so many years ago, it is in the best position to be considered 0846 over any other. It was reassembled in a historically accurate way and is sympathetic and representative of the era. While I am not in favor of mass production of "replica" cars, I would rather have this car exist, be it 60, 70, 80, or 90% of 0846, than no 0846 at all. Lastly, I have no problem if you disagree with the belief of some that this car is substantially 0846, but you present no facts to back up your belief. You have made no any effort to gather any facts, to look at the car, to compile a historical time line or to do anything other than to demand proof that you are certain does not exist. That doesn't make you a legitimate skeptic. It just makes you look like a blathering, cabbage headed nabob, grasping at straws of jealousy and self righteousness. Sad really....

 

Out of respect for the copyright, I won't photochop a sasquatch crossing the road in front of the car.

So what's the deal with the car running around the track with no rear cover? A test run? Or cover blown off due to a faulty latch?

 

That would ONLY be allowed if sasquatch carries the missing rear cover...

 

"Plenty of convicted felons know this fact."



Jack

Yes 0860.

 

By all means, let's maintain that patented Ferrari tunnel vision and never allow any comparisons or analogies that clearly show what a double standard we are weaving in an attempt to document a car that we all want so dearly to believe still exists.

It must be rather distressing to have to resort to name calling as a substitute for iron clad documentation that would end the great 0846 debate.

 

I must say I agree with the above. I really don't think there is any point answering anything Arlie asks anymore as as post 1111 shows he is unable to understand the questions he's asking much less the answers he's given.

I for one will be putting him on ignore. If anyone feels that he asks a serious question that deserves a serious answer please pm me.

 

Well let's see now. P4Replica has been permanently banned, Horsefly is ignored. I guess it's all just an 0846 cheering section now. The peace and tranquility of non-dissent. Enjoy.

 

I think the only person who holds a patent on tunnel vision is yourself.

 

ditto. been on my ignore list for some time.

 

Providing ABSOLUTE proof for anything is impossible.

 

Well your shtick is pretty old really and you realy never let up. Quite frankly, you've done it to yourself.

I was having trouble figuring out just why they kept responding to you, so putting you on ignore seems like a wise plan to me. You certainly have nothing to add to the discussion - all you seem to want to do is keep your name in the game, and who really cares what your opinion is?

At least when piloti makes a comment it's not some strange and far-reaching anaolgy having nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I don't see anyone putting him, or anyone else with a dissenting opinion of 0846 on ignore, so your comment has little merit.

>8^)
ER

 

No, wrong again Horsey. I did not say that you ARE a blathering, cabbage headed nabob. That would be name calling. I merely said that your own writing makes you LOOK that way to those who read these pages. It is important to read carefully, so that you don't go off all half cocked. Here's a site for you to wile away the hours with while on duty.
http://skepdic.com/bigfoot.html Report back when you have solid iron clad proof of the big yeti.
We all know what you have to say about 0846, so you need not bother again.

 

I think it's time I make a big pot of chicken soup; it kills all ills you know...

 

Nah, more popcorn all around...

 

348 Spyder posted this photo of 0858.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88807

This is the tail that we're now fitting to 0846. The Point that needs clearance is the point nearest the Mechanics head. Note that 0858 is a P4 and note the P4 step up. The bottom side forward edge of the tail is stepped up, above, the door bottom line unlike how it was even with the door bottom line when Ferrari fit a P4 tail to 0846 and had to push the tail forward to allow that point to clear the tire when the tail was tilted necessitating the modification I posted photo's of earlier, the one that Piper wouldn't have had to make as he used a stepped up tail. Also note how flat the roll hoop is compared to how the P4 tail that was mounted on 0846 (The one Destroyed in the Le Man's fire) was.
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Note that the bottom side edge of 0846's P4 tail is even with the door bottom. (Same as P3's/412P's)
Note that on 0858 it steps up.

Note the results of our surgery to 0858's P4 Spyder tail on shape of roll hoop.

ONE OTHER THING I JUST REALIZED. LOOK HOW FAR 0846'S TAIL PIPES STICK OUT OF THE TAIL. THE REASON IS BECAUSE THE TAIL IS PUSHED FORWARD INTO THE MODIFACATION I POSTED PHOTOS OF FOR THE CLEARANCE NECESSARY AS THE BOTTOM SIDE OF THE TAIL IS NOT STEPPED UP.
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Jim,
When you refer to the step up, is that the lower portion of the tail is not in line with the door shut line?

 

Just a couple of things.
1) If 0846 chassis was in Switzerland in 1977 how could it have been used to build 003 in 1974 - the date that DP says he built 003. If he built 003 using chassis 0846 he must have built it in 1977 or later. Or are you stating that when David swore that statement he was knowingly lying under oath? That is a serious charge you're making.
2) If the chassis seen in Switzerland in 1977 had 0846 stamped on it - where is that stamp now? Who took it off and why?

Nathan

 

@Jim,

Another thing I just noticed is that the rear portion of 0846's tail from the older photos, appears to be taller than seen on the P4's!!!
A close look at the photos shows that 0846 has 8 wents in the sides of the tail in opposition to 0858 which only has 7 wents and which is stepped up at the front!!! Could this be it??? I mean, if the rear of 0846's tail were taller at the rear it would leave more room for the spare tyre and won't need to be stepped up at the front.....right???
I could be wrong though!!!

Kind regards

Carsten

 

http://velocetoday.com/cars/cars_69.php
The following documentation was provided at the time of the sale dated October 6, 2000.

CERTIFICATE OF ORIGIN
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN
1967 FERRARI 330 P4
I, David PIPER, hereby declare and warrant that were acquired from Enzo Ferrari in 1974 an original 1967 Ferrari Ferrari engine Nr.*0003*, an original 1967 gearbox Nr. 593A N7,the original 1967 chassis drawings and various original 1967 body and suspension parts which we built into a 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 chassis No. *0003.
Signed: David Piper

In addition, Piper, in writing attested to the fact that: he had continuously owned 0003 since 1974 and had raced it at various venues through the world and included photo's, magazine and newspaper articles on the car. Some of these photos had notations in Piper's handwriting on the back one of which interestingly refers to it as a Ferrari 330 P 3/4 and having won a race in UK.
___
A summary:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=67322006&postcount=374
In addition once again my P4 is not nor will be for sale and any statements that I'm doing this for monetary gain are untrue, defamatory, and actionable.
Even though all of this has been laid out for years; in partial summation, once again:
I believe David's written warrants and representations are true. That the engine, transmission, and various body and suspension parts were acquired from Enzo Ferrari in the early 70's and are original 1967 P4.
I also believe Tom Meade's statement as related to Patrick Faucompre that " he personally threw out the chassis-tube of 0846 in a Modena junkyard, because nobody was interested by such parts, and traded or sold to David in 1971 a complete P4 body."
I also believe that Pinin Farina did not "Find the chassis remains of 0846 in their basement"and use them to build P5.
I Believe Mark Ketcham who wrote:
"I spoke with Marcel Massini this morning. (He was the fellow who saw 0846 in Switzerland in 1977. He repeated that there was definitely and entire chassis stamped 08460"
I Believe Marcel Massini who wrote:
"Yes, I did see- as stated before-the customs CARNET, which is a normal customs document (import a car under a bond, without paying taxes, for easy import and re-export).
NO, I was unable to make any copies, since I was in the Sbarro garage, a workman's place without any administrative machines. As I said before, CERVAN Corporation (A David Piper owned company) was the name of the company that brought it into Switzerland. I wrote that name down back then, simply because I found it an unusual name and I intended to find out more about that company (which I never did, unfortunately). When? In 1977, as said before"
Mark added:
"He does not know 100% who exported the car from CH, but it was sold to Michael Vernon in GB, who Marcel inspected the car for."
I know that for quite some time, after receiving the details and photo's of my car including chassis number which is asked and required by them and answered by me as 0846 Ferrari placed 330 P4 1966 in "Your Garage" on a web site bearing: "Copyright c Ferrari S.p.A."
______

Where Marcel Massini laid it down
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/printthread.php?t=56217&page=20&pp=20
Of course, I knew Michael Vernon. He owned a chain of hairdresser stores in UK and had many interesting comp Ferraris in the late 70s and early 80s. As you know, I visited Franco Sbarro's warehouse in Grandson/Switzerland 25 or even more years ago and was shown a P car and a customs carnet titled "0846" and the customs carnet was issued in the name of a company "Cervan Corporation". I understood, at the time, that it was either a company owned by David Piper or by Michael Vernon. Too bad I didn't take any photos!

 

Smoke and mirrors.
2 simple questions not answered.
1) If 0846 chassis was in Switzerland in 1977 how could it have been used to build 003 in 1974 - the date that DP says he built 003.
2) If the chassis seen in Switzerland in 1977 had 0846 stamped on it - where is that stamp now? Who took it off and why?

Nathan

 

No smoke and mirrors.

Read the last paragraph.

 

Tom
It still doesn't answer the questions;
1) If 0846 chassis was in Switzerland in 1977 how could it have been used to build 003 in 1974 - the date that DP says he built 003.
2) If the chassis seen in Switzerland in 1977 had 0846 stamped on it - where is that stamp now? Who took it off and why?

Nathan

 

Nathan

That you continue to show a reckless disregard for the truth is very sad. David's statement speaks for itself and was made by him.

The person who made the statement that you refer to, is clearly identified as Marcel Massini, not me, so once again you're wrong and once again showing a reckless disregard for the truth by stating:

"That is a serious charge you're making."

It is quite clear that I'm not making any charges. I'm simply posting things I know are true.

It is also quite clear that David, not me, signed his name to the documents on Page 14 and 15 of the 0846 Papers and the statements on page 22 of the 0846 papers, confirmed in the email I recently posted were clearly made by Marcel Massini to Mark Ketcham, NOT TO OR BY ME.

It is also quite possible that David built 0003/0846 in 1974, later took it apart and shipped it's chassis or to Switzerland in 1977 assuming Cervan was David.

David G.

Yes on the P4's the tail was stepped up. On P3/P4 0846, P3/412P 0844. P3/412P 0848, 412P 0850 and 412P 0854 the tail was in line with the door bottom. 0844/0848/0850/0854 all have 2412mm wheelbases. P3 0846 had a 2412mm wheel base. P4 0846 had and has a 2400mm wheelbase. P4 0856, P4/350 Can AM 0858 and 330 P4/350 Can AM/ 350(?)P4 0860 all have 2400mm wheelbases.