The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Opinions proliferate and are usually offered gratuitously. They seldom come with an indication of how much in the way of due diligence was undertaken to form the opinion or to what degree personal interest plays a part. Sometimes, they are merely a reflection of what a party may hope to be true. All this serves to underscore the elegance of the concept of estoppel. Cards on the table are required. One puts into evidence a solid foundation for a contrary view or one remains silent. And, as with diamonds, silence is forever.

 

All true especially when The Sounds of Silence have played for over six years...

 

P3 color photos are rather rare...
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Very Beautiful!

 

Targa 67
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Hey

Hope you're well and that I see you again soon!

 

I hope to see you soon as well. Targa 67 again.
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La Targa-Florio!!! Such a great car in such a great race... Thank you for the nice photos Boudewijn.
Here's another one with #0846 during the verifications before Le Mans 1967, another great race.
I think the man who's looking to the right is Ingeniere Giancarlo BUSSI. He disappeared tragically after his kidnapping by the mafia in 1978.
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http://www.caranddriver.com/features/13632/sport-instruments-of-war.html

 

Jim,

That was a fun read.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Pity about the tiny (un-clickable) photos.

 

Might I just point out that post No 1741 in this interminable thread about replicars reproduces my late mate Geoff Goddard's photography of Vaccarella in a genuine works Ferrari P3 being applauded by Ernesto Venturella, one of - I believe - the two policemen resident in Campofelice, Sicily.

When we offered some of Geoff's Targa prints on eBay recently I was contacted direct by a young man named Venturella who lives in Campofelice today. Intrigued by the name I e-mailed him and asked if he was perhaps related to Geoff's pal Ernesto, who had been a WW2 PoW in England and who spoke English with a broad Birmingham accent (quite a surprise in downtown Campo).

It turned out to be Ernesto's son - the old boy having passed away some years ago. I subsequently provided him with several shots of his Dad which Geoff took, showing him with Pete Coltrin, Henry Manney and others... The power of the internet, eh?

DCN

 

Doug

Do feel free to point out anything you wish as long as you refrain from stating opinion as fact. You're right about the power of the Internet. If it hadn't been for the Internet one of the cars I own wouldn't legally, for all time, be 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 0846, Ferrari wouldn't have recast 603 P4 suspension parts to help me rebuild this car, nor would Ferrari have, in their sole discretion listed me as the owner of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 0846 since 2000 on a web page published by them, even though both Ferrari and I agree that they scrapped, not destroyed 0846's original chassis and that the car as it exists today was reconstructed by me from what Ferrari described as "glorious pieces", which I and many others believe contain the original chassis remains of 0846, something BTW you yourself have stated in writing was not impossible, I think you gave it a 5%, not stronger chance of being true, nor would Marcel Massini, who has studied this car in minute detail have clearly referred to it in writing as 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 0846 currently owned by me. The Internet is a wonderful thing.

Best

 

Love the shot of 0846 and J6 running along in traffic- I'm not sure if I'd sh*t or go blind if I happened across that.

 

I enjoyed your post recounting the human interest behind a photograph that I have fascinated over finding it emblematic of a time when my interest in racing and Ferraris had begun to take hold. Your opening phrase, however, was unworthy of you and, with all due respect, demonstrates a lack of courtesy to all concerned. What might seem interminable to you is perceived as sustained interest here in a thread that has been part detective story, part philosophical discussion and wholly rewarding to those of us who give a damn. Your reference to replicars reveals more than necessary about you and more properly belongs in an 'Axes to grind' thread, if I may say so.

Welcome to F-chat.

 

My humble apologies, Doug for any unintended breach of copyright.

See: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137195667&postcount=1741 .... 'P4Replica' guilty - as charged.

Presuming you have read the previous page (87) you'll also have understood the context in which it was posted (uncredited).

 

Sigh... I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that a jocular single noun should be read above as "expressing opinion as fact". Nor of being characterised as "demonstrating a lack of courtesy to all concerned". All..?

That certainly was unintended. Rest assured that if I wished to show a lack of courtesy I can make it unmistakable.

I have been closely involved over the past forty years - sometimes working with and for Ferrari SpA - spending time with its movers and shakers up to and including the Old Man himself - and in providing background data, drawings, reference photographs for the production of numerous (and some now renowned) replicars whose period prototypes had ceased to exist.

These have included Ferrari Dinos and V12s, Lancia D50 V8s, Lancia-Ferrari V8s, Vanwalls, BRMs, Coopers, Jaguar D-Types and C-Types, Lotuses, Maseratis...and more. Every one of these assemblies brought varying percentages of absolutely genuine period components back to life in running form.

With this background I am better qualified than most to characterise all the above as 'replicars', sometimes omitting the second 'r' - and I describe them in that way, almost every day.

None of them existed as such in the period they now commemorate.

So - pardon me - but what exactly is so different here?

DCN

 

Sounds amazing !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fVQ1n25KG4&feature=related

 

I've yet to encounter a situation where good manners required an explanation. Today, credentials are often presumed to trump diplomacy; I haven't managed to accustom myself to that view.

 

Doug

Let's cut to the bottom line. Expert that you are, as posted by Replica Paul, you wrote a description of what you thought this car was for David when he offered the car for sale at Auction which stated said that the car's frame was built to P4 plans and that the gearbox was F1. Neither of those statements were correct. The chassis is absolutely not built to P4 plans, it's built to P3 plans and modified precisely as described in the Ferrari Factory records to accept a P4 engine, and reduce it's wheelbase by 12mm among other things. It's gear box is clearly the P3 gear box that ran and failed in 0846 at Le Mans in 1966 with it's original Ferrari stampings which identify it as such: tipo 593 and it's original ACO stamps that identify it as having run at Le Mans in 1966.

After reading my research you stated that it was possible, subject to serous, willful misrepresentation, that I was correct and that the car as it's exists today contained the original chassis remains of 0846.

Nathan has proven beyond the shadow of any doubt by posting a photo provided by David that I didn't change this chassis to forge 0846's most important aspect it's vestigial P3 motor mounts.

I have never claimed that 0846 as it exists today is anything more than then it is. The fact that it contains the major portion of the chassis remains of 0846 is what it is. No more. No less.

Best

 

Geting ready for Daytona...
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Looking good, Jim.

But I notice that you still haven't moved that 'slightly non-original' brake balance valve.
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No I'm keeping that as I actually find it quite usefull. David is a racer and his quest was always for lower lap times rather than leaving things as they were. This car is what it is. I do however feel that restoring 0854 the way I am is the right choice for that one.

Best

 

http://www.forum-auto.com/sport-auto/theme40/sujet378358-455.htm

 

Fantastico!!