The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Ohh I thought Chaos was saying that Piper claimed he owned 0846 and it through me for a loop. It didn't sound quite right... but... from memory year and years of this thread can be a bit tricky.

I wont go on to say that meade fabricated the story... I don't know the man or know anything about him.

I will say people in general like a good story... and a 30 year old fishing tale take on all sorts of shapes sizes and colors.

That is why I prefer to stick to the photographic evidence as primary. The stories of what people said just so... ... ... malleable... to rely on it more than physical and photographic proof just seems silly to me. Its always nice to hear people sides as long as it can be corroborated with evidence etc... Sometimes the persons story leads to another which lead to another which leads to a photo... and that is always nice. So they aren't completely without merit or a complete waste of time... but flimsy is a very good word for it.

Blue prints, data sheets, specs, photographs, film, video etc... those are the best after 30 or 40 years.

 

Round and round we go. Most of this stuff could have been, and probably was, written years ago - sigh!

 

Good to know. So what frame did Marcel see if it was written years ago?

Anxious to hear your knowledge....from years ago....

 

Vince..it has already been explained in this thread. Quite a few times in fact.

If David Piper had 0846 I'm quite sure by now he would have come out with it. Not only to prove he did not sell it to Jim, but to also put to bed any thoughts the he may have made a mistake.

The chassis may indeed still exist, but as far as I can tell it is not in the possession of anybody we may know nor are they interested in posting about it on the internet.

 

I hear ya.

Just curious as to what that chassis was that day. And the story behind it.

Also genuinely curious about the whole story behind Piper building these cars and how he used them as there seems to be many gaps.

Relationships like this don't happen today like they once did, Ferrari will never be the company that it once was when you could strike a deal with the man himself and build yourself a car out of his old junk.

Also curious about Tom Meade and his relationship with Ferrari.

How did this all go down? Where you went to the boneyard or some garage in Maranello to start your home brew project out? Truly a magical period as Tonga and his crew have repeatedly found joy in. And I'm with him, Piper and his relationship to Ferrari, and Meade etc. are to me, the hey day of what being an auto junkie was all about. This is when gas cars were gas cars. And amazing ones at that.

Taking delivery of a new Ferrari from Ferrari just isn't that interesting to me. Going to that same factory in the heyday of Ferrari and buying up his old race cars to build your own hot rod in your garage? That's is about as interesting as it gets in the Ferrari worid IMO.

Personally I would think it valuable that we know all we can about a privateer that struck a deal and built his own version, keeping the flame alive, and how he did it? A man whose racing and passion for cars took him around the globe. Where were they made? When? Were all the chassis built together? By the same shop? Same time? Any story on building up the chassis other then the blip in the sales ad about Kerry Adams? Any cool mods that Piper did to improve on what Ferrari had done before? In what configurations did he use them and what are the tales from the days these cars burned rubber on the track?

Frankly, I don't get the strong opposition to trying to sort some of these details out?

Everyone says, hey man... this has been gone over a thousand times blah, blah, blah... it's been rehashed so many times, it's probably in the thread somewhere etc., yet no one knows any of these interesting tid bits of , IMO, not only one of the greatest cars of all time, the Ferrari P3/P4 series, but also the interesting history of a man who was given the go ahead by the man himself to build his own. Do you feel like that will ever happen again?

To me the whole thing is an important story that should be told while it still can, so why not flesh out as many details as possible? What kind of coffee did the welder of 0900 drink? Far fetched that you could find something like that out? sure, but if it was unearthed, I'd put it in the book.

As far as 0846. There was a time when they couldn't find the Titanic. Who knows?

 

Well ask the people directly involved, instead of harping on and on and on about it in this thread and expecting other to do all your bidding for you.

Has it not sunk in yet, they wont be answering your repeated questions on this thread, end of, if you want to know more then contact them yourself and find out.

 

... and let's not forget that 'trolling' is a banable offence ... This tread should be finally moved and still an excuse is is owed to MiuraSV!

 

Good post. Totally agree.

 

You are correct BUT for the fact that Piper has told many experts that he doesn't want to discuss the saga so we may as well give up because we will never know the truth of their parentage. The story of his interactions with Ferrari and his building of these cars would have been very interesting but for his own reasons it would appear that we might not get the facts beyond unrelated snippets and maybe we shouldn't. However contemplating the idea of what we deserve to know and learn about these DP cars it does make me believe we are seeing another contradiction where DP is relieved of any need to discuss what he may have done or not done to build any car while others are told they need to prove what happened to the car during that self same period.

MiuraSV has pretty much nailed that the car is in a significantly different state to the original #0846 and yet these cars were built from the works plans so either way it must have been modified at some point by someone because the modifications, especially the engine mounts aren't from any P3 or P4 and thats just one major discrepancy from those plans. Without DPs input we will never know why or how those modifications came into being and I for one would love to know, over and above any suggestions of whether it contains any part of #0846. Having read this quote;

"Around 2004 Doug Nye asked DP about the origin of the chassis he sold to JG and reported that unlike previous discussions re his cars David's answer was not satisfactory, nor did it negate JG's theory re that its #0846. He also related that Liz Piper cut off any further discussion about the origin of the chassis David sold to JG."

Here and elsewhere, the chances of finding out anything further is not bloody likely if Doug Nye couldn't find out any more than that.

 

The thread has been at a dead end since Steve posted the period photos and Jim stated he would provide documentation to support his claim, but has yet to do so.

Piper and Marcel have chosen not to enter the debate in recent years, so clearly nothing is going to change from that angle.

The sensible thing would be to lock the thread now until someone comes up with new info and gets it vetted by the mods before it gets posted otherwise its simply groundhog day over and over.

 

Absolutly! However, we know after MiuraSV's documentation that the late 0846 and DP0003 are two completly different things and have to be seperated.

 

LGS - The premise of the DP series of cars is that they were built from the factory drawings supplied by Enzo for #0900 while Steve has proven the premise that the chassis has been heavily modified from that fitted to #0846 and in his words that it cannot be #0846 because it is different in significant ways. How do these two premise's fit when they contradict each other? The only options are A - Piper built this chassis to some other specifications for which he didn't have Ferrari factory drawings or simply used another chassis (Ferrari, lola, porsche, spec built?) or B - It was built to the drawings like the others and DPs mechanics heavily modified it to fit the 3 litre engine and gearbox (as testified by MiuraSV) and whatever OEM parts they had laying around or C - all DP series P4s are built like DP003.

The premise that the pictures prove it can't be #0846 because its different ONLY stand if it hasn't been made different at a later date in the same way that if they flattened the book depository and grassy knoll it cannot be said that Mr Kennedy did not get shot in Dallas. This doubt doesn't magically make it #0846 but does throw out the old chestnut that whatever it was built from, it has been changed dramatically from the drawings it is said the DP series is made from, at some point, and so how can it be judged from current appearance. IF its accepted as proven that it is not #0846, I would like to know when and why the car was modified from the others in the series, if indeed it was modified. This all begs an answer that may throw the entire story of the DP cars parentage (enzo's approval, works drawings et al) into stark relief.

I think a book about Pipers cars would make for fascinating reading but in todays climate of rich men with richer egos and lawsuits it is unlikely that we will ever get full disclosure of what passed through the hands of wheeler/ dealers like Piper in the 1960s and 1970s.

 

No one is begging any of you guys to participate? So... if what is being talked about doesn't interest you then by all means, don't click on the link. As you said, nothing new here, so why do you feel the need to show up? I'm sure if there is any news worthy of your intellect someone will let you know to check back in. I would be glad to send you all a P.M. when that happens.

As far as Piper not talking, we all know he wont, and IMO that is fairly suspicious. What is he hiding? We all know he is a guy that loves to talk, except about this? Hmmmm... So the suggestion to contact him is equally as ridiculous.

But...

Just cause he wont talk, does not mean the answers can't be found. Or at the very least, the possibilities can be talked about.

Which is exactly what forums are for, talking about things that interest you.

Look forward to discussing more important matters with you guys again in the distant future when they, if ever?, arise. When that day comes where something pops up that is worthy of your attention I will be sure to let you know.

Cheers.

 

Although Liz Piper always said she was going to write a book (that goes back over 20 years) I doubt it's ever going to happen. David is not going to talk about it so no-one should hold their breath. Vincent suggests in his last post (the next one to this one of Timmy's that I am replying to) that something else may pop up. Somehow I doubt it, but even if it does there is no point in repetitively going over the same old stuff over and over again in this thread. I agree with Paul, the mods should lock this thread and only reopen it when someone can show they've come up with something new.

 

Why do you care? If we want to discuss areas that pertain to these chassis over and over again that is what a forum is for. If you do not care to be bothered by that, than the solution for your woes is pretty simple... don't bother clicking on the link?

I am suggesting something else may pop up that is of interest to you in regards to if Jim's chassis is or is not 0846. Until then, if that is your only interest? I don't understand why you bother to take part in any of this? If we care to discuss unclear events that have not ever been answered, ad nauseum, or how these frames may have been constructed and the differences between them, you don't have to be bothered by it, it is your choice to clink on the link, no one is begging you to be here?

So if you are tired of hearing all this noise, why do you keep showing up?

Seems pretty silly to me.

Cheers.

 

Because as long as we are interested we have to check whether there is anything new - which nowadays there never is. But if we don't check how do we know?

 

As I said, I will let you know.

What is going to be new anyway?

You have all confirmed that this chassis can in no way be 0846 no?

Is there some magical Unicorn that is going to come down the path and change all that?

And how do you expect anything new to come about if you don't examine the inconsistencies and un answerd questions that already exist?

Another magical unicorn?

 

Agreed. Everyone can go back to their corners until and if we hear more.

 

Agree, and as stated a couple of times by myself and others, the thread should be moved to the appropriate section until such time conclusive proof is provided that it is indeed 0846.

Good evening gentlemen.

 

Fully agreed that the DP-cars are wonderful creations and a very interesting story to further research. Let's do it but the moderators should first take the rules serious and finally move the tread, because the MiuraSV-documention made clear beyond any doubt that the DP0003-chassis contains no remains of the late 0846. This long overdue move would easily enable to continue any kind of speculation about Piper, his cars, Mr. Massini's memory etc. as well as any other information.

 

If you said "makes it clear the car is not as original" I would totally agree but there are too many contradictions to that proven replica proposition, as with any other. Ultimately only a few people know what really happened and until DP or a staff member present tells of what happened in the 1970s the thread should be closed.

 

It seems whoever is hiding behind the Vincent profile has decided they are in charge of the thread now not the moderators!

 

Lol. Hard not to laugh at the irony of this coming from the guy who keeps saying what should be done with the thread by the mods!

This thread has been around for years. Some of us - whether you like it or not - think the mystery of how JG's car was built (how, by whom, where, etc) is interesting and perhaps it can be discussed here in the future. After all, didn't it take years for steves stuff to come out? Could take years still for the remaining mystery to be revealed.

 

I have suggested the mods step in that is all, to stop the endless re hashing of the same old dross for page after page, and it appears many agree.

 

At least be completely truthful. You want to close the thread (end the game) while your position is ahead and preclude anyone talking about things you don't agree with. It's a discussion board, stop bullying people into not discussing. The mods are not going to "vette" new information and approve posting it here or anywhere on f-chat. Where the hell did you get that idea from? Are you going to suggest it be enforced for all threads? This isn't the official repository for cavallino, it's a chat board...