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The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Veteran
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  3. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
  4. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Tell us about Greg Feldman.
     
  5. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Ahh yes. The old, you gotta believe me defense. Total winner.

    They would not hold up to scrutiny in court AKA hearsay , but lets just go with it. It's just an Old Ferrari. Not like it has any value. And I'm talking historical value. The kind Steve Robertson Esq. is really, really totally into. Not a grudge. Totally not a grudge. Totally.

    You do indeed live in a flat world. Send pics.
     
  6. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Veteran
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    Aside from your legal analysis whats also funny (sad) about your statement is the unintended irony in how the only evidence Jim’s replica is instead the actual Ferrari 0846 is precisely that - JG’s old “you’ve gotta believe me position”. Seriously… thanks for the laughs, and don’t fall off the end if you take a trip somewhere.
     
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  8. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #10531 Vincent Vangool, Dec 13, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
    I do agree with you there. I would like to see him willing to analyze these pictures for what they are.

    I don't know how busy your daily life is, but I will assume sufficiently busy. Would you spend your time on this on a daily basis? And for how many years would you be willing to do this daily?

    He's got a pristine replica at worst. An many would agree. He's got a real one sitting right next to it. I think at one point you just enjoy those cars for whatever people think they are.

    I' be willing to engage in some discussion. But at the point where it gets incessant, I fell most people have other things to do.

    And I'm not looking to downgrade Mr. Robertson's research. I'm sure most of it is what he says it is.
     
  9. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #10532 miurasv, Dec 13, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
    Every picture that I have allocated a chassis number to in ANY of my posts throughout the whole of this thread is provably that chassis number. If you'd bothered to read my posts and the links I recently posted you would see examples.

    See proof here in link 1, link2 and link 3 that the Karl Ludvigsen pictures showing the engine mountings, which were as a P4 with no vestigial P3 mounting as Mr Glickenhaus states, and are actually of P3/P4 #0846 at Daytona, 1967, which was the only Spyder there. P4 #0856 was a Berlinetta at Daytona, 1967.

    In the link here the picture showing the bulkhead tube differences between #0846 and #DP0003 is undisputedly from Le Mans, 1967, again #0846 is the only P4 Spyder with the other P4s there being Berlinettas.

    Another picture in the link here of #0846 car number 20 from Le Mans 1967, the only P4 Spyder there proving #0846 when converted to a P4 for 1967 was left as a P3 at the front. Mr Glickenhaus's replica is as a P4 at the front proving it was built to P4, and NOT P3 plans, proving it is not #0846.

    All the pictures of Mr Glickenhaus's DP0003 chassis and 3 litre 312 F1 engine that I have posted are Mr Glickenhaus's own pictures or from FerrariChat member Wolfgang, which is also undisputed.

    You've stated that you can see many severe insufficiencies in my evidence but you've actually shown us absolutely none.
     
  10. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #10533 miurasv, Dec 13, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
    May I suggest that it's you who should stop digging your deep hole and refrain from posting your uninformed drivel.
    The above clearly applies to yourself.

    Now the above is a prefect description of you.

    I threw no rocks, but presented rock solid evidence. You are making out that there is nobility in Mr Glickenhaus walking away from this thread, whereas in actual fact it was just him not being man enough to answer questions and admit he is wrong about his Piper P4 replica with a 3 litre 312 F1 engine being Ferrari 330 P3/P4 #0846, the winner of the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona.

    Really? Or just a cop out for not actually being able to identify any insufficiencies you state there are in my evidence?

    As it is Mr Glickenhaus who would be the ONLY ONE who would benefit by increasing the value of his car by many millions from such a report, if indeed his car was what he stated it was, why didn't he hire such an investigator? I suggested years ago that he should hire Marcel Massini. See my 2014 post here. As has been stated many times by legally qualified people in this thread, the burden of proof lies only with Mr Glickenhaus. In law he who alleges must prove.

    Nope, only applies to the one making the extraordinary claims.

     
  11. Vincent Vangool

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    #10534 Vincent Vangool, Dec 13, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
    You got any of them Piper years pics?
     
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  13. I16

    I16 Formula 3

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  14. TTR

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    Glad to have been able to provide some sense of relief. :)
     
  15. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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  16. Frank_Ford

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    Expressly not taking a side on the state of 0846 - but following the above logic, most Ferraris would not have been "authentic". (And while Classiche certainly shifts the burden a bit, even its assessments are limited to whatever information they rely on -- which could be flawed.)

    Typically cars had always been accepted to be authentic, unless there was anything in its physical presentation or known history that raised questions, or a second car claimed the same identity.

    As dissatisfying as it might be to some, JG does have to "prove" anything to anyone, until someone wants to buy it and its value has to be established beyond doubt. Until then, he certainly can limit himself to formally challenge any "replica argument" to prevent that from being accepted as an unchallenged assessment.

    So, this matter might stay unsettled for quite a while. Until then, Steven certainly does deserve credit (whatever the motivation) for gathering up historical information begging to be reconciled some future day.
     
  17. werewolf

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    #10539 werewolf, Jan 6, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2022
    I hear you ... but I, for one, will never accept a car to be authentic, based on unproven and highly questionable claims. Authenticity must be proven, not in-authenticity ... so the "opening assumption" is never one of authenticity. FWIW, i follow this principle on old American muscle cars as well as exotics ... most experts i know, tend to agree (most experts in the rare art world will agree, as well).

    Imagine every Tom, Dick and Harry who claim their latest barn finds to be genuine, multi-million dollar lost gems ... the world would be a VERY crazy place if the opening assumption was one of authenticity!

    As far as Glickenhuas ... he has spent a whole lot of time and effort (and continues to do so, as i understand it, in forums where he can no longer be challenged) trying to convince the world that his claims are true. He even lawyered-up, in an attempt (i suppose) to bolster his position (!). Clearly, he has accepted for years that he does, indeed, have something to prove ... IF his claims are to be believed. He didn't leave Fchat because he no longer accepts his "burden of proof" ... he left because ALL of his claims have been successfully refuted, by someone who did more research than he.

    In short: Authenticity is that which MUST be proven ... not the opposite. And Glickenhaus has failed, to date, to deliver on the burden which he himself has accepted for decades.

    Finally, we must remember that the validity or invalidity of 0846 impacts more than that car alone. The entire market of 330 cars is very small ... the authenticity of another one, impacts the value of each one. As I see it, all collectors of rare Ferraris ... arguably, all collectors of rare, exotic cars in general ... have a "vested interest" in the authenticity (or not) of 0846.
     
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  18. JSinNOLA

    JSinNOLA F1 World Champ
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    Fantastic point.

    Just imagine if a fully authenticated 330 comes up for auction and lists itself as one of "x" fully authenticated......Oh the fireworks
     
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  19. JAM1

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    Do you want to know why this thread must never die; why readers must understand the facts; why people should be outspoken against this car in all other settings outside of Fchat? Because of this… Glickenhaus continuing even to this day to propagate his nonsensical story he owns ‘0846’ on social media plus his own site, and in feeble attempt to legitimize his fake he even leverages major shows like Amelia Island to display his replica as-if it were authentic in order to dupe more and more of the general public and writers into believing his nonsense. Sycophants want to pretend he’s not pushing the story and just enjoys the car for himself but it’s very clear he is still working to convince people…

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  20. polds

    polds Rookie

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    He's doing himself no favours.
     
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  21. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    ??? How’s that ?


    While I can kind of understand why one of the main characters in this “debate” charade/debacle feels the necessity to continue defending his rather hollow and quite frankly, meaningless/pointless "victory", I do fail to comprehend why some of his supporters (“Sycophants”?) continue to behave like their undies are also wound way too tightly around this topic.

    I also can’t help but wonder am I the only one seeing the irony in the behavior of these “Sycophants” with their own (unspecified) angst and funny(?) one-liners or cute(?) images not necessarily doing any favors for intended goals of the aforementioned main character ? If anything, perhaps opposite.

    These are somewhat rhetorical questions, so answers aren't really expected or necessary.
     
  22. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes..and no....and Happy New Years to all my old internet friends!

    It's the event itself, that tenders the invitaion.....and writes the placard too usually.

    So, P4/5 made the lawn at Pebble (which Ferrari Spa originally was not happy he built it..)

    The curent "0846" I think the "public" either accepts as a "reconstructtion" or simply does not know enough histury, to care.
    Mt G is simpy continuing his public persona and a lot of people respect it.

    To continue to berate it as Piper rebuilds the 350 Can AM car, well it seems rather a double standard
    Also agree the injected 412P from McCaw is TOTALLY documented, so he does indeed have "two"....
     
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  23. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    At some point "what people think" at that level really does not efect what you have for dinner, nor where you sleep, ya know??
     
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  24. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    How did the Walter Medlin car, turn out??
     
  25. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    The 412 P which Jim Glickenhaus acquired from Bruce McCaw many years ago is #0854.

    Our company, Symbolic Motors, purchased it in the 1990s from Mr. Hajime Tanaka, owner of the T&I Circuit near Aida, Japan. Prior to that, it was owned by Gerald Evans (who also owned 412 S #0744 at the same time. Evans eventually sold the pair of those cars to David Livingston).

    And just for the record, 412 P is not fuel injected. Only the works 330 P3 and 330 P4 cars were injected. However, the one-off 330 “P3/P4” #0846 was also fuel injected.
     
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  26. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    I was told back then that Jarold Evans was selling 0744 MI and 0854 to settle a divorce.
    Would have been a tough row to hoe, being in that position.
     
  27. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    My spelling error (i.e. Jarold, not Gerald).

    After we acquired 0854 from Mr. Tanaka, we sold it on to Paul Vestey in the UK. He part-exchanged 250 TR #0738 TR and a Jaguar D-Type Longnose ex-Ecurie Ecosse towards it.
     
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  28. Terra

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