The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

So, 424 pages, 10,000 + replies, assorted back and forth of, I am right you are wrong! No, You are wrong and I am right!
I would not read this thread, if my life depended on it. Some photos are cool, about it as far as content.
It is so bloody crazy no one would make a movie out of it.
Wait a minute, yes it could be, just like "Exterminator" (" The man they pushed too far") reads the poster, a terrible movie by the way.

Bottom line, a guy says his car is real, others say not. What is the ratio?
It is like going to the Louvre with a Da Vinci, under your arm, that someone in a trench coat around the corner sold you, and you, knowing it was a fake, but the more you scraped the paint, "it was real!"
The EXPERTS at The Louvre, will set you right...or wrong.
End of story.

Why is this endless story going on and on and on? It reminds me of:

" George Costanza : No, it's about nothing. Jerry Seinfeld : Well, maybe in philosophy, but even nothing is something. ...
George Costanza : Yeah, but nothing happens on the show. You see, it's just like life."

So, I think it is the endless thread about nothing.

Bye...
Regards, Alberto

 

To surmise the thread in a Seinfeld reference:

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Mr Glickenhaus convinced many people, including many members of this forum, his David Piper P4 replica was the real thing, and he continues to this day try to pass his fake off as Ferrari 330 P3/4 chassis #0846, the winner of the 1967 Daytona 24 Hours driven by Chris Amon and Lorenzo Bandini.

The evidence linked in the post here needed to be put out there, that proves the truth of the matter, and to stop his ongoing campaign to distort Ferrari History.

 

So even the Glickenhaus fans are cool with this, yes?

"Glickenhaus knowingly purchased a reproduction chassis from Piper. (If memory serves me, which it normally doesn’t, he brought 003.) From what I recall Glickenhaus paid north of $500,000 for the chassis. The story begins thus with Glickenhaus buying and Piper selling a reproduction chassis."

Is this correct?

 

Some backfill. For those of you late on the scene. All that matters, especially with race cars, is the original chassis. Telaio. The very word strikes fear in the weak brains. We're talking about Freemasons. We're talking about the Vatican Bank. We're talking about things that should not be discussed in the light of day. Telaio a menace to us all.



I understand the difference between Saguaro and Telaio, but the difference is the same. The only reason I can say this out out loud is is most of the members of Telaio are dead. Stone cold dead. Those remaining hate Jim Glickenhaus as much as I do. There I said it. I hate Glickenhaus. I'm letting you know up front. This is not an unbiased version of history. But, but, it is true.

 

Good lord!

 

Exactly!
Butt hurt drama queen theater that just keeps on delivering with fist pounding, foot stomping, funny(?) memes, pics and videos. Oh my !
One can almost imagine what it might feel like to be on the winning(?) side of this self-destructive comedy…
… or …
… how deep and heavy those psychological wounds must be.

3, 2, 1, …

 

Nice. I always liked Lester Flatts and Earl Scruggs.Great banjo music.

Perry

 

X-Ray the chassis,.....otherwise it is all on the table; case still open.

It's definitive with an chassis X-Ray....it's internet conjecture without, on both "sides".

Show me an X-Ray and the case will be answered. An X-ray of the chassis would answer all the questions regarding the chassis.

Full stop.

 

Incorrect.

You overestimate what the Niton XRF X Ray metal analysers, as used by Ferrari Classiche, can detect. They will be able to definitively prove if the chassis composition/grade of the metal does not match that which Ferrari used on 0846, and therefore that will prove it is NOT 0846, BUT, if the metal was actually the same composition/grade on DP003 as 0846, that is all it will definitively prove, and that is that it is the same metal composition/grade only. It cannot prove definitively that it is THE #0846 chassis. These X Ray analysers cannot prove the age of the metal either.

Besides, all the above you do not need an X Ray XRF metal analyser to determine that the Glickenhaus Piper DP003 chassis, including the welding, is completely different in configuration/geometry/dimension to the chassis of #0846. All you need is a pair of eyes.

@3500 GT please answer this for the benefit of the forum members in a yes or no answer: Have you actually taken the time to read, and have seen all the evidence, including photographic comparisons of the real 0846 chassis in comparison to the Piper DP003 chassis in the links in the post here?

 

Indeed. Miura's thirst to best Jim has led to nothing but a one sided conclusion using cherry picked facts to create that conclusion.

Miura's whole premise is this: If the car as it sits today does not EXACTLY match pictures from 50+ years ago, then it is definitively not #0846. Cased closed, nothing else to look at.

LOL.

While I will agree that there is a better chance that this is pure #0003, more than any chance it is the remains of #0846 surviving, due to the pictures that he presented, those pictures aren't definitive proof of anything. They are merely stepping stones in the discovery of what this is.

I have to laugh at any of the other so called Ferrari experts here, even the Hall Of Famers, that believe these pictures are definitive proof of anything. Maybe they need to get a job at Classiche.

Miura has lead an amateur myopic investigation that ONLY looks at the facts he wants to. That's clear as day. His only goal here is to best Jim, that is clear as day. He says he's here cause preserving Ferrari history is important to him. LOL. If he cared about preserving Ferrari History he would have voiced that in 0858. Instead he thought hacking up history that still existed to recreate history that no longer does was all good. That's not preserving the real history as the car left it's intended service. Someone that roots for that has no care in preserving actual Ferrari History. LMFAO.

Over 50 years, cars are crashed, cars are repaired, cars take different form depending on the repair and modifications done to it.

Piper was a racer, not a collector. He was not concerned with keeping the cars going by keeping them in original factory spec. He is know to modify his cars to his liking. He is known to crash these cars. He is known to repair his cars his way. The idea that a car in Pipers care would be the same as the day it left Ferrari is laughable and knowingly false, as the other cars in Pipers care have received the same fate. They are done to his requirements, not Ferraris.

The Glick Chassis has evidence of both of these: Improper repair and improper modification. It is clear that the chassis has been crashed and modified and repaired.

Pipers own chassis has evidence of this as he built it his way versus Ferraris way. He had the P4 plans, yet his own chassis is not built exactly to these plans. I don't know how one expects repairs to be made to those blueprints. or even toe 3/4 construction, when even Piper did not build his chassis 100% to those blue prints.

The problem with Miura's revenge quest is that he totally leaves blank the years the car was in Pipers care. Even if it is just #0003, there is no real knowledge of its years that Piper had it. When was it crashed? Who repaired that damage? Who modified the engine mounts and when? All of this is a mystery from a internet detective that wants to call it case closed so he can win his Vendetta. LOL. These "facts" would NEVER hold up in a court of law against cross examination.

To really know what this car is, one thing that needs to be done is flesh the Piper years out as well as X-ray the chassis.

Till then Miura's just basing his facts on objects can't be modified over time. LOL. Metal is clay and it can be shaped any way the user wants. Case is wide open from an actual factual standpoint.

 

Why one more step of an X-ray? It is known who built the chassis, and it wasn't even a vendor Ferrari used. You have tons of photographic evidence comparing the real 0846 to DP003 that demonstrates the truth. Steve has shared what Forghieri stated after studying detail photographs.

I'm not sure that an x-ray is going to prove anything. Are you expecting it to show there is a hidden note from Enzo inside one of the tubes?

Facts? How many more does it take to recognize what has happened here? Steve, and others that you have refused to acknowledge because they have not posted here, have done the definitive work on this topic. Someone offers to sell a recreation, someone knowingly purchases said recreation. Purchaser invents a theory that some can't let go of because it would be the ultimate barn finds story and the reality would destroy the dream.

 

Let's forget the chassis for 5mns, who did the body? Bc it's absolutely gorgeous. Much more so than the recently seen 0858.

 

Conjecture? What rubbish! Clearly you've read nothing of the provable facts in the links in the post here.

 

I meet him during the Ferrari French Quarter Classic. Young guy. We’re talking almost 20 years ago, so bear with me. He was a metal guy, but it is in my memory he wasn’t in the car restoration biz when Glickenhaus found him. He was taken back by the whole thing. I got the impression Jim gave him a blank check. Can’t remember his name.

I’ve said this before, I love the car. Whatever my personal opinion of Jim Glickenhaus, he created a piece of art. I have gone from seeing DP003 in the pits at Laguna Seca to seeing Stroll’s real car on the green at Pebble. DP003 was the better car.


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How can a fake be better than a real original car? You've obviously not seen the poor and unsafe way the 3 litre F1 engine is mounted in the chassis.

 

The only thing "laughable" in this whole debate, is the idea that miurasv has anything to "prove"

Let's be clear, once again: Glickenhaus is the one making the OUTRAGEOUS claim that a car bought and sold as a replica, is somehow "actually" a valuable vintage Ferrari. Glickenhaus is therefore the one with something to prove. If anyone "needs" to go "beyond" pictures and memories ... into the realm of xrays and metallurgical DNA analysis, perhaps ... it's Glickenhaus, and certainly NOT miurasv.

FACT: ALL of the "types and styles" of "evidence" used by Glickenhaus to "prove" his outrageous assertion ... including pictures, memories, and expert testimony ... have now been used AGAINST that very assertion ... much, MUCH more thoroughly and effectively, in fact, than anything ever researched by Glickenhaus. It's absolutely absurd to suggest that high-tech metallurgical analysis must now be employed by those offering to disprove any claims of authenticity.

FACT: The car is a replica. Period. ANY and ALL of the "suggestions" to the contrary, have not just been refuted ... but have been eviscerated. The car IS, and will REMAIN, a replica ... unless and until Glickenhaus presents something brand new and conclusive, to PROVE otherwise. End of story.

 

Stroll’s car was over restored. It looked like a piece of jewelry, not a race car. Just my opinion, which I value highly. [emoji6]


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Stroll car is gorgeous. Just needs to be used a bit. Look at 0858 and that one is almost ugly.

 

I better say this before Marcel chimes in, former Stroll car…


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