The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Hello Jim,

Do you know who owns 0900a? I once asked Mr. Piper if there where two 0900s and he denied this. I've seen him race a green 0900 in historic races on several occassions over the past years.

I'm also curious to what Marcel Massini said about your car. Usually he has a strong opinion.

Ciao, Peter

 

Is it just a chassis or a complete car? Colour? Is it raced in historic events, or kept away?

Ciao, Peter
(p.s. sorry for this slight off-topic).

 

This 1%-er should have the draft of the article for Cavallino finished in about 24 hours. Sunday is blocked out entirely for finishing it. And I've agreed with Rob and Jim that portions can be posted in the Rosso section. Better subscribe now.

 

The Large Red Ferrari of Long Island Transporter stood shining in the early morning sun. It was parked behind the Ferrari NA Tent at Luguna. The lift gate began to open. For one short second the only people standing there were the FOLI Crew, Sal, and I. Slowly my car began to roll back onto the lift gate. The sun caught a curve and they started to come. I was watching the lift gate so at first I didn't see them. I turned around. There were 50 people. They were dead silent. The lift gate touched the ground and the FLOI Crew began to push as Sal sat on the sill and steered.
The crowd began to grow. People pulled out cell phones and spoke in quick hushed voices.
"COME behind the Ferrari Tent! In front of the Ferrari Tent!"
I walked ahead of the car and the crowd parted slightly.
The FOLI Crew put the car directly between the FNA tent and the Rolex Tent in the middle, in the sun.
The crowd was now over 100 people and growing but still their voices were hushed.
Suddenly a loud voice shouted out.
"Remember Me?"
I looked down. A small boy was looking up at me.
"Last Year. You brought your Ford! You let me sit in it! You said you'd bring your P4. OMG!!!!!!"
"Of course I remember you. Come on. Lets have a look."
The smile on my Daughters Face. The look in that young boy's eyes and the proud look on his Dad's face as he watched his son shout out.
Those are thing's I will never forget.

 

Quality post

 

Hear hear....
Happenings like this was what once made me the enthusiast I still am....Bugatti, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Ford.....whatever.....enthusiast-owners like Jim, that are willing to let people have experiences like this, are the reasons that others like myself is having a wonderful hobby!!!

Wonderful write up Jim!

Best regards

Carsten

 

Would you be referring to me, by any chance, Lee ?
Just FYI - Over the last 20 years, I've probably got up 'real close and personal' with a few more P3's/P4's and 412P's than yourself, including: #0844; #0850; #0854; #0856; #0858 and #0900, and have the photos to prove it. In fact, I sat in #0844 at Tim Samway's workshops, early in 2001, not long after it had arrived in this country, and was still carrying the #26's slapped on for the Christie's Pebble Beach auction the previous year.

Worship replicars ? I don't know about that. I am proud to own one, and I run a registry for P4 replicas - and hence my initial interest in Jim's car - I was first pointed in the direction of FerrariChat by a fellow P4 replica owner ! Coming to think of it, why am I wasting my time on here replying to this ? It's our national rally (actually NF Auto's Open Day, but effectively the same thing) next weekend. More fake P4's parked together than you're ever likely to see in a lifetime. Better get out there and get polishing !

Lastly ..... And I'm not the one casting aspersions on events of (the) past. Nor am I the one trying to 'pervert the course of history' to suit my own ends. Enough said. I'm outa here .... gotta go clean my wheels !

 

Is that the Jim Kinsler of Kinsler Fuel Injection systems, Jim ? Reason I ask is that I'd been told that he was possibly the owner of a Norwood P4, and had been thinking about giving him a call to check out whether he did.
Do you know if he ever did, or if he does still own one ? Thanks.

 

Paul
Yes. He is also the longest continuous owner of a GT 40 now that Bill Wonder has sold his. He REALLY knows P cars. He is also the best source of NOS FI parts and spares for these cars including entire units. He spent hours pouring over my car and 0856 and was there when Wayne inspected my chassis and made the comments I have already spoken about. Jim was particularily interested in the wheelbase and how it was modified from P3 2412mm to P4 2400mm as per 0846's build sheets. He confirmed the measurements to .005mm. Photo's of all of this and specific details will soon be published publically. I gave him my 104+ pages and look forward to his comments as he has much first had experience with these cars as well.
In addition info is really starting to come out. A lot of the NART people saw my car as well. After examining it one of them ripped an original NART patch off of his blazer and handed it to me which made me very happy. Another NART driver told me he and others had looked for 0846 for over 20 years and that Mr. Chinetti had told him that the chassis remains existed. He also was there on the day and upon physical inspection he too felt 0846 had finally been found. He thinks he may even have period pics, as Wayne told me he might also have and both promised to look for them and send them on.
A third NART driver also inspected my car and brought by several friends to inspect it. He too told me he felt my car was the real deal.
It was a very interesting week.

 

Sorry, Jim - thanks for the additional info, but you didn't reply very clearly to my actual question. Is that Yes,
the same Jim Kinsler (it obviously is), or Yes - he did once own a Norwood P4, or Yes, he does still own one ?
Thanks for clarifying ....

 

I think not, and I doubt you have driven a 250TR on the beltway in DC in the rain, nor run an XK-SS out of gas due to a 40 gallon tank and no gauge. Or had a judge @ concours tell you that an NOS coil on a 550 Spyder ''wasn't original to the car''...ummm, Sherlock, it won the index of performance in '55, and no, the gas wasn't original either. So, 20 years isn't jack to some of us who like to remain low-profile, and have been involved with more original, rare cars than you'll know. And I have pictures to prove it as well. Discretion precludes telling stories out of school about various restorers/dealers/authors, but trust me, there are few skeleton-free closets in the Ferrari world.

Replicars other than Favre or PurSang are oddities at best, not raceable, nor showable. Your pounding of Jim, 0846, groveling over Piper(talk about ''a$$-kissing'') is unseemly at best. Petty, mostly.

Who IS trying to 'pervert...yadayada' pray tell?


Jim...Great vignette. I remember my 1st Historic...we pulled into town, I was fiddling with the trailer gate, unloading the D. I heard a noise, and turned around to find Hank Haga and his lovely wife with their T35, asking if we needed assistance. Fellowship like that is what the hobby is all about.

 

Hummmm....
No responses. I guess I pushed some buttons.... GOOD!!!!!

I'll be blunt. There is a large segment of the classic car community that are nothing more than wealthy posers. They only own cars like this because they have the finances to do so. They could care less about the cars themselves. I don't personally know ANY of the people involved, but I am confident that for most of them, the agenda is about money, and not the car. If it wasn't, this would have never been made into such a federal case. Sad. Really Sad.

 

Wayne:
This is not a personal attack! I wasn't trying to silence anyone.

My whole point is no matter how much evidence is presented, there will NEVER come a time that everyone will agree....and in my opinion, the whole reason for the discussion is to attempt to persuade people. The more people that are persuaded, the more the potential financial value of the car is enforced.

As I said, I don't know you or any of the parties involved personally, but I DO know human nature and how important status and wealth has become in today's society.

As far as I'm concerned, this WHOLE discussion is about egos, status and attempting to reinforce the value of the car in a financial sense, NOT in a historical sense. If this wasn't the case, it wouldn't have become the major automotive discussion of the last year or so.

There are a small minority of people interested in classic cars, including Ferrari who are not, nor will they ever be in the position to gain anything by their involvement in discussions such as the one over 846. All they are doing is trying to seek out the truth. So much nonsense has been presented on BOTH sides of the equasion that finding this out has become more difficult; NOT easier.

As I said, it APPEARS that the one person involved that actually might know the truth is telling different people different stories.

The sadness come from the fact that so little of this discussion and other similar ones is based on a quest for truth. It is based solely on the agenda of the people who have the potential to profit in some manner.

It should be obvious that I am not one of those people. All of my life's savings was spent taking care of my mom before she passed away. I am driving around in a 1995 Toyota Tercel!

 

Paul
I answered the only part I know the answer to. I'm not sure if he has or had a rep. P4.

Wayne has pointed me to the post you mentioned. As the poster was under an anon name I didn't recognize the name you used.

The post follows
Him
I'm open to be corrected, but it is my understanding that the P4 in question was not accepted by either the Monterey Historic Automobile Races or the Pebble Beach Concurs. It will appear at the Ferrari Club of America Concours as a "display only" item. I do not know whether the latter was the decision of the organizers or the entrant.

Me
As my car will never be Vintage Raced why would it have been submitted to the Historics? In addition as several replica/Continuation cars have raced at the Historics and will race there this year acceptance in the Historics, in and of it's self is by no means by itself an indication of authentically.

Him
I said I was open to correction, but please answer directly.

Did you speak to Steve Earle about entering your P4 at the Monterey Historic Automobile Races?

Did you speak to anyone involved in the organization of the Pebble Beach Concours regarding getting an invitation for your P4?

Was it your decision or that of the organizers to enter you P4 in the Ferrari Club of America concourse at the Quail Lodge on 17 August in the "exhibition only" class?

Many thanks.

Me
Do you think that by asking the same question again you'll get a different answer? Do you think that by ignoring the answer I've already given you I'd be interested in answering future ones?

"As my car will never be Vintage Raced why would it have been submitted to the Historics? In addition as several replica/Continuation cars have raced at the Historics and will race there this year acceptance in the Historics, in and of it's self is by no means by itself an indication of authentically."

Me (Today)
Just to make sure there's absolutely no confusion:

1. I've spoken to Steve Earle several times. You may remember my MK-IV was on display at the Historics last year. This year, as I don't now, never have, nor ever will Vintage Race I only spoke to Steve Earle about having my car on display at The Historic (which it was) at the behest of an organization that has asked for the time being that I don't name them which I won't.

2. I did speak to the Pebble Beach organizers, even though we both already knew the answer as this year there was only one of each Ferrari model and considering the controversy that surrounded my car at that time, we both knew that the P car that would be invited would be 0856. The Chief Ferrari Judge suggested that I enter my car in the FCA concours at Quail where he was also Chief Judge which I did and where you can see from the above photo it was. The class for which it is eligible is a non judged class. (Competition Car modified by someone other than Ferrari. Both Piper and I.) For the record The FCA made up the dash placard that was in my car but that in and of it's self of course means nothing.



Best

 

got it Judge. been thinking about Rossa, more to support the site than for any other reason. bieng a " mere silver" guy i am sure the news will make its way down the hill sooner or later!!! i replied to your PM but i cleaned fchat and my internet cache. if i deleted the reply let me know!!!! big OOPS on my part. bieng single with 10,000 things to do all at once really sucks sometimes.

 

Wayne:

I respectfully disagree.

It wouldn't matter if I stumbled on a car that was potentially worth 5 or even 10 million if I had to pay something like $500,000 for it. Potential is irrelevent, if it is impossible to act upon.

I simply don't have that kind of money, and neither do most people, so there is ZERO possibility of it becoming a life changing event for me, or for the vast majority.

It is ONLY for those with money that finding a car with a high asking price matters, regardless of the potential financial gain.

 

I totally agree that there are any number of people, including myself, that could somehow put together $500,000....but how many would do so and take the chance that what they have discovered in not what they think it is? Only the rather wealthy could afford such a risk...

 

Hello Jim,
This fact is very interesting to me (as a model builder of course). Did Ferrari modify the wheelbase to P4 dimensions on 0846 in 67? I had always wondered if they did but could never find any info on it in any of the books I have that clearly confirm this. I understand the P4 is about 1 inch shorter in wb but I thought they just might have made the body appear to look like a P4 but leave the chassis alone since it is a fairly small amount. Is the P4 type chassis called type 604? and P3 called type 593? If yes then that explains a few things for me. (if you've answered these before I apologize as I have kinda stopped reading the threads for awhile) That particular car was very unique in some very subtle ways and the only P3/4. The other P3's that were converted in 67 should be correctly referred to as P3/412P's (at least that's the way I understood it, if I'm wrong please correct me)

Also it seems some very credible people have verified some info for you, that is good. Would it not be a good idea to have them sign some kind of affidavit to add credibility to support the claim that 0846/chassis parts/other misc pieces are in your possession and in that car? I'm guessing you have probably thought of this already.

Also please let me know how to purchase your book on your car. I am very interested in all the little details. Thats exactly the kind of info and pictures that I enjoy the most.

Wish I could have seen it in Monterey. I'm sure everyone really enjoyed seeing such a car restored to such a high level.

Ed
Island Collectibles, Inc

 

Ed
You live in Long Island? Why don't you come up to Lime Rock over Labor Day Weekend and I'll be happy to show you my car and try to answer any and all questions you may have. Anyone else who wishes may of course come up as well. My P3/4, MK-IV, 166SC and T-70 (T-70 on Sunday as if it's not raining I'm going to drive it up) will all be there Sat., Sun., and Mon. at the Ferrari of Long Island Transporter.
Best

 

jim,

you are a wonderful caretaker of these great machines and really go out of your way share your love of these thoroughbreds!

you make me proud to have grown up on the sound!

regards, peter

 

There you go, boys and girls.

The man has nothing to hide.