The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

And then of course, there are those 'intelligentsia' amongst us, whose postings seem to comprise solely of delightful expressions like "S.T.F.U." - especially when they read something they find unpallateable.

 

Oh and welcome to the board! Nice entry by applauding us for at least spelling Forreri, err Ferrari correctly.

Your quote is interesting, but without source somewhat meaningless. Aside from that, what the heck does the (and that includes...) statement mean? If Ferrari SpA has an official website on which they list Jim as the owner of the P3/P4 with the s/n 0846, that to me means about everything. If they don't agree with this car being 0846, then I'd think allowing that car to be posted with that information on their own website is gross neglicence.

Or look at it the other way round: I pick a s/n out of the blue and tell them I own that car and just because they like me so much, they post that data on their website? I don't think so. We're talking here the same company who asked me for a faxed copy of my title as proof to just visit their factory.

So as far as I'm concerned, this argument is far from over.

 

Dear Sir:
Some of us can spell, we just can't type worth a damn. Others can't spell, but neither could Einstein...

I am not part of any "lobby". Any conclusion anyone or even a group comes to, doesn't effect me at all.

I have simply looked at the evidence presented so far, and come to MY OWN conclusion. Of course I may be mistaken, but I can't see how any other conclusion could be drawn after looking at the evidence presented...

....and one last time...there was only ONE Ferrari P3/4 chassis, and it was 846. If it isn't 846, than what is it, and where did Piper get it?

 

Although a very minor point almost not worth mentioning, the chassis configuartion of the P3/4 numbers more than one. All the P3's were converted to P4's in 1967 therefore the chassis would look the same (with the exception of any repaired damage) Chassis 0846 would look just like 0844 and 0848 as far as modifications for the new engine and new wheelbase are concerned. The reason they call it a P3/4 is because (at least to my understanding) it had slightly different bodywork then the P3/412P's which were converted P3's with mostly P4 bodywork. 0846 had unique aspects and the 412's were fairly consistent so to differentiate it was given the name P3/4. However the 412's were also sometimes referred to as P/3's.

Not real important info, just interesting details.

Ed

As I just noticed and am now editing my post, the other 412's did NOT have the engine modification to the chassis, my mistake. 0844 and 0848 only had the wheelbase modified as they used the older P3 engine.

So, 0846 is totally unique.

Ed

 

Ed:

I agree, but we already know the history of 844 and 848. They both were turned into 412Ps, which, although only slightly different, still are not exactly the same as a P3/4. I agree 846 is unique, and it would be absurd to think Piper created, or had created intentionally, a chassis with 846's unique characteristics.

One last time for all those who say it isn't 846...how did Piper wind up with it if it isn't real. Present some logical and rational explanation...

 

Agreed.

My use of STFU is limited to the incoherent mutterings of madmen, as they have not demonstrated much understanding of the written word, only the word's spelling. No ''intelligentsia'' are needed to silence those who are too daft or intellectually lazy to research a question on their own. Toddlers can raise questions...adults attempt to answer them.

Since 0846 chassis is uniquely modified, and Piper says it was a replica chassis for a P4, we have a dilemma.
1:Who would craft a new chassis then cunningly cause chassis damage/repair/relocation of mounts, etc. and NOT renumber the chassis plate to add, at the time, thousands to the value? Oversight, stupidity, or the chassis in 0846 was never replaced?
2:Where are all of the chassis Piper allegedly has constructed?
3:How much scotch causes memory loss?
4:When will Paul apologize for his comments about F-chat? Seems he has a problem with the unpalateable(US spelling).

 

Is that you Harry?

 

I stopped at Lime Rock yesterday and saw Jim's supercar collection (plus 0002!). Jim thanks for sharing! I wish I could have gone back up today to see the cars on the track.

I still can't imagine how the cars are not damaged by potholes on city streets.

Art S.

PS. for those who went, who owns the SF ALFA parked next to 0002?

 

Cognoscenti
Your posting of D.'s private posting on P's private message board that you have made public, which without the express permission of D., which I doubt you got, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, speaks for itself.

As you've made it public I feel I must respond, not fully as I've told D. I wouldn't, but I will say that, for example as Andreas has pointed out D's statement is, prima facie, incorrect.

The law is quite clear on Duty to act, Acquiescence, and the obligations of publishers of web sites.

Arlie
Regurgitating the same rants does not change the fact that you said DMV would not issue registration based on forensic examination and they have. BTW Ferrari S.P.A. is aware that I have registered my car as 0846.

Ed
I'm glad you corrected yourself. There is only 1 P3/P4 0846. 0844, 0850, and 0854 are 412P's and as the Dr. has pointed out that's very important to remember.

Moving on to things that matter I had a great 4 days at Lime Rock. I met a lot of you and had some very interesting discussions with people who have read my booklet and came by to have a closer look. I also met a person who had driven down from Boston who has been following all of this who gave me several original photo's that he snapped with his Brownie Camera when he was 15 at Daytona of 0846 and 0856 including an amazing shot of Bandini sitting in 0846. I also met someone who was at Mt. Equinox as a young boy and, brought, to show me, original photo's of my Lola in the pits. (My Lola is the all time Mt. Equinox record holder)
I also me a man who attended every Targa Floria during it's last 15 years and was a Police Officer at the 1967 event when 0846 crashed. He was standing a few feet away and helped to push the crashed car off to the side. He had some VERY interesting photo's as well. As you may know I've been invited to the 100th Anniversary of the Targa Floria with 0846 which should truly something.
Best

 

That's fantastic. So many more of life's little treasures have unfolded through your ventures through the US with 0846, I can scarcely think how the 2006 Targa Florio will unveil more memories.

 

I suggest you go to the Targa Florio Retro, mount a video camera shooting through the windscreen, and then, let us see the film

 

Sounds like a plan.
Best

 

But don't crash it this time!!

I'm sorry I missed Lime Rock. I swear, Mr. G., that I do get outside the DC Beltway ocassionally and I will get myself up to NY to see the cars.

 

I'll see if I can get permission to.
Best

 

Third time's the charm. (I hope)
I'm sorry you missed it. There were some wonderful cars there.
Best

 

Daviv Piper brought 250LM s/n 8165, 365P s/n 0824 (one of the two!!), 330P2 s/n 0836, and 330P4 s/n 0900. He drove the P2, but apparently didn't have a driver for the P4 - in the programme as 'TBC'. When I was hanging round the paddock I was tempted to offer my services, but I thought it wouldn't be fair on the poor old chap to have his weekend spoiled by strain caused by falling on the ground laughing his tail off..........after all, he must still have been feeling a bit stressed about how he came to miss out on the identification of a valuable chassis recently.


(BTW I saw him driving a 250GTO on the road a few years ago, probably not an original one, does anyone know a s/n or anything about it?)


Paul M

 

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Everyone makes mistakes; even me.
Mr.Piper is not God...

 

And classifying my statements as "rants" does not add any authenticity to your car among the collector car world just because some "blue haired" ladies at the DMV took time away from their 8 hour coffee break to gave your car a title. A friend of mine just bought a VW dune buggy with NO windshield wipers, NO speedometer, and a host of other OFF ROAD only ingredients. It also came with a TITLE issued by the state DMV and the previous owner had it licensed and driving down the street. So much for DMV credibility.

So now were assuming that the New York DMV is in the business of authenticating rare collectible automobiles? I thought they were in the business of collecting revenue for titleing and registering automobiles, so therefore any car that they "approved" just adds more money into the DMV coffers. So they. like any DMV, have a vested interest in approving any applicant. No exactly an "unbiased" approval of any particular automobile's authenticity.

I think that you are now tap dancing in a minefield Jim, and here's why. Since you are now using the DMV's issuance of an 0846 title as a guidepost of authenticity, this now means that your former $100,000 pile of Piper parts is now a potentially THREE OR FOUR MILLION DOLLAR one-of-a-kind automobile. Are you anxiously awaiting the phone call from your county's tax assessors office? I'm sure that when word gets around that the DMV just issued a title for a multi-million dollar collector car, the word will get back to your county's tax assessor and next year, come property tax assessment time, they will increase the taxes on your $100,000 pile of "Piper parts" to the appropriate level required for a THREE OR FOUR MILLION DOLLAR automobile. That would amount to a FOURTY times increase in value and taxes just for the privelage of saying that your car is 0846, whether the collector world actually believes this or not.

Sounds like you will be "paying the Piper" for the second time, and still have no guaranteed authenticity.

 

Arlie
Yet another rant. Yet another time you refuse to admit you were wrong. Yet another time you make a prediction that is wrong. Tax is owed on what one paid not on what something is worth. Once again you're talking out of your ass.
Best

 

Yes, the DMV doesn't care what something is worth, but what the selling price was.

As far as the argument of using the DMV as credible source goes, my experience with them is, that they are very careful on what they're willing to put on the title. True, they're often clueless, but they wouldn't want to put something down, they're not sure about.

True they don't check what condition the car is in (e.g. the dune buggy story), but IMHO they won't give you a title for something that doesn't exist.

 

Me too , but we own'em when we do. Glad you got to review Jim's nice booklet.

And Arlie, if you're going to shoot yourself in the foot, QUIT RELOADING

 

Jim, haven't you ever heard of "personal property tax"? John Doe may have paid $10,000 for his house back in 1952, but you can bet that he owes taxes on $250,000 these days because that's what his house is worth. Maybe things work differently up there in New York, but the vast majority of states have a "personal property tax" that MOST CERTAINLY IS based upon what something is worth, not what was paid for it. Down here in Arkansas, the various counties assess personal property based upon its VALUE, not what one paid for it. The assessors office has a "board of adjustment" and they WILL up the taxes on your personal property if they find out that it has increased in value. I know that for a fact, because I received a letter from the Board of Adjustment one time when they were adjusting the property values and INCREASING the assessed value on numerous antique cars that were on individual assessments. I had to go down to the board with photos of my antique cars and PROVE to them that my junky 1957 Chevrolet sedan delivery wagon was NOT a fully restored antique Chevy worth $40,000. MANY other people were called in for the same purpose. Antique car values were soaring in the late 1980s and the local tax assessor was determined to get some extra gravy for the county. The local state representative of my district made a big issue out of the "readjustment" debacle because so many people complained. I made it out of the prediciment alright because my cars were unrestored projects. Others, like yourself, who had wonderfully restored antiques, were shafted with a nice big tax increase.

So much for "talking out of my a** as you say.