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The Piper "P4" 0900, Just What is it ?

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by TZ 750, Mar 5, 2014.

  1. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    910
    Lots of questions, opinions and pictures
    of David Piper's "P4" 0900.

    This is the place.

    Anybody have pictures with the body off ?

    Anybody have pictures of the frame ?

    Anybody have pictures of the frame number ?

    Anybody have pictures of the engine ?

    Anybody have pictures of the engine number ?
     
  2. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    Aug 1, 2002
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    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    Excellent idea for a thread.
     
  3. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    910
    Thank you, sir.

    The idea somehow
    just came to me...
     
  4. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2012
    996
    St. Louis, Missouri
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    The best way to get people to post true information in an on-line forum is to post up some bad information, and the corrections come flooding in. Because I have a lot of experience with the former (just think for a minute what the screen name "180 Out" might mean), my answer to the question, "just what is it?," is that the Piper motor car with chassis number 0900 is a replica of the P4 model of Ferrari sports prototypes. The Piper 0900 was built from the ground up in a shop or shops, none of which were subject to the ownership, custody or control of Ferrari S.p.A. The Piper 0900 lacks many features of a Ferrari P4, including most notably a "330" (4-liter) engine. Rather, it is running a 4.2 liter "350" engine, that had been assembled by Ferrari for use in its Can Am program. Some of the body panels incorporated into the Piper 0900 were made for Ferrari for use on a Ferrari P4. Enzo Ferrari sold the engine and a collection of other parts to David Piper, as well as a set of plans for the Ferrari P4 chassis. It is unknown if these plans reflect the as-built condition of any Ferrari P4, or if Mr. Piper followed these plans in the construction of the Piper 0900. It has been claimed that Enzo Ferrari also reserved chassis number 0900 for the Piper replica. I don't know if Mr. Piper makes that claim. Ferrari S.p.A. has used that chassis number on a Ferrari car, and disavows any official blessing to the use of chassis number 0900 on the Piper replica.

    OK, that's about what I know off the top of my head. Let the flames begin!
     
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  5. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
    676
    I have quite a few photos of 0900 (the first one!) with body clips off, mostly taken on a visit to DP's workshop nearly 20 years ago; a magazine article by Doug Nye from 1979, not very long after the car first appeared; notes from talking to DP at a couple of events; and sundry close-up paddock photos.

    But if I make any of that available it's just likely to attract snipers, so I don't think I'll bother.

    Next?

    Paul M
     
  6. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Apr 6, 2004
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    CH
    so does all the info stated above mean if the car ever shows up in Italy the authorities will confiscate the vehicle and then crush it faster than you can say the phrase 'Enzo's ghost looms large'?
     
  7. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    Yorkshire, UK
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    John Gould
    An interesting idea for a thread, provided it does not deteriorate into another David Piper bashing exercise by the ill informed, speculators and axe grinders!

    Piper was (and is) first and foremost a racer. From the outset he modified and tweaked his own cars in an effort to improve their performance, with - I guess - little thought about their resale value.

    He bought two GTOs and two 250LMs from the factory and flew the Ferrari flag across Europe and Southern Africa, depending largely upon start and prize money to finance his activities

    He then went on to drive for Maranello Concessionaires, NART, SEFAC and others and has continued to campaign his stable of historic racers.

    I have heard from several sources, who are themselves well connected, that Piper was known affectionately as Nostra David - or Our David - by the old guard at Maranello,

    All this has no direct relevance to the provenance of 0900 but it might suggest that the drawings were perhaps passed on informally by Enzo, unbeknown to his commercial people, and it seems quite likely that the car has evolved over the years, so has probably drifted away from its original appearance and mechanical configuration.
     
  8. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,105
    Well for a start this post is in the wrong section of fchat is it not, according to the rules laid down by admim?

    Recreations and non period re bodies sums up the car, and I am no detractor, I think its fantastic
     
  9. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2012
    6,630
    Maybe Napolis knows a little more that the these infos.

    :)
     
  10. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Bubba
    No this is fine..

    The details are at the beginning of Mr. G's thread, where they all go travelling to Piper's barn, to look at frames.

    The OTHER thing to know, is that "Enzo gave him the plans, and a VIN to use" is well true.

    He then commissioned three frames!

    So to be accurate:

    0900a, that he kept. The car he still runs as "0900"
    0900b, Not sure the current location of this "spare"
    0900c, let's just say that the is the one that Mr. G purchased from Piper that day in the barn.

    Sal his mechanic, picked it out as "looking correct" and he was right, upon further investigation, this is the frame that contained the salvaged remains of 0846, it was the only one, of the three, that turned out to NOT match the P4 blueprints.

    Because it was a P3/4.
    Different dimensions in the wheelbase, IIRC as well as engine mounting points, for the earlier block.

    I don't mean to speak for anyone.
    I was fortunate to have a copy of the "0846 Papers" from not long after they made these discoveries.
    This is also all in the other thread if you take the time to read and follow along.

    I feel myself that given the backstory 0900 is certainly a continuation car, created "in period" after the factory moved on, despite it's dissonant clash with the 312PB that also has the legitimate factory VIN of that number.
     
  11. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Bubba
    He's shared freely with all that have asked, you have a copy?
     
  12. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Quite fair and true.
     
  13. francisn

    francisn Formula 3

    Apr 18, 2004
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    Berks, UK
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    francis newman
    Whatever else, whatever it may or may not be, Piper's 0900 is the closest you are ever going to get to seeing to a real P4 racing on track, so just count your blessings and say thanks every time you see it. I certainly do.

    Long live David Piper !
     
  14. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    So is there another Ferrari with the serial number "0900?"
     
  15. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

    Jul 23, 2012
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    Art Corvelay
    Does anyone know exactly the length of time that passed between the P4's being created for the factory and Piper's chassis being built and his car completed?
     
  16. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    910
    I suspect that ADMIN will
    allow the thread to stay here
    for at least while 0846 and 0858
    are attracting interest......

    Scott
     
  17. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    910
    Paul:

    I for one would like to see your photo history posted.

    You could wait some time, and see how the thread
    develops before casting pearls before swine....

    Scott
     
  18. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    910
    IIRC, the "Shelby" continuation series is based on the Shelby
    organization having a few VIN numbers "lying around" from
    the old days.

    It may have been that there were even
    VIN "Plates" to go with the paperwork.

    So, if the Shelby "continuation series" is "legit........."

    Scott
     
  19. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,105

    That is the whole crux of the matter though is it not?

    Of course:-

    Shelby can produce continuation Shelby Cobras

    AC can produce continuation AC Cobras

    Aston Martin can produce continuation DB4 Zagatos

    Lola can produce continuation Lola T70s

    etc etc etc

    Ferrari therefore can produce continuation Ferrari P4s

    but can David Piper produce continuation Ferrari P4s? I say yes but that's just an opinion not a fact.
     
  20. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    Jun 1, 2008
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    Kim
    Didier Peroni drove the completed 0900 in 1982 for starters
     
  21. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    Kim
    Well said

    My understanding was that in addition to being given the plans and the VIN the frame was also made at the factory using the correct tubing - or am I wrong ?
     
  22. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    David does say Enzo gave him the P4 blueprints on the video and in writing to me.

    "0900's" chassis was not made at the factory. David says it was made with correct sized tubing by the shop that made the original P4 chassis for Ferrari around 1974 long after The Ferrari Factory had stopped making and racing P4's and was racing 312PB's the chassis numbers of which lead us to 312PB Chassis 0900.

    In 1977 Ferrari sold the last 312PB chassis 0900 to Mr. Chinetti. There a bill of Certificate of Origin from Ferrari S.p.A that clearly shows that.

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142965710-post3041.html
     
  23. TZ 750

    TZ 750 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2009
    910
    Getting to the root of the question !

    Would it be true if:

    1) The frame was made
    (by whoever made the original P4 frames)
    under order / permission of Mr. Ferrari and / or the factory.

    2) Mr. Ferrari and / or the factory authorized VIN 0900 for that frame.

    Most factories, if a spare part is needed, can find a way for that to happen.
     
  24. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Ferrari S.p.A definitely authorised chassis number 0900 for the 312PB they sold Mr. Chinetti in 1977 a chassis number that follows the other 312PB's that Ferrari made.
     
  25. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

    Jul 23, 2012
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    Art Corvelay
    So the original P4's were completed in 1967. SEVERAL years later Piper's chassis is completed?

    Do we have an accurate date as to when his car was completely finished?
     

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