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This Points System still sucks (F1) !!!!!

Discussion in 'F1' started by FLATOUTRACING, Jun 13, 2004.

  1. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
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    Jon K.
    Anyone else noticed that RB could conceivably win the next two races if MS DNF'd and he would lead the world championship.

    MS would have 7 wins, RB 2 wins and MS would be 2 points behind.

    Not likely to happen but I think the new points system falls short of rewarding the winner enough points.

    I said this last year when JPM won a race and got 10 points, but DC, whom JPM nearly lapped got 2nd place and 8 points. DC just happened to be running at the end of the race and the other cars dropped out.

    I think the old system should be brought back.

    Opinions ?

    Regards,

    Jon P. Kofod
    www.flatoutracing.net
     
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  3. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

    Jan 9, 2004
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    This system is to stop Ferrari from winning the title after 7 races.
    It isn't working but could if other teams could get a car that worked. The 1 hour 12 laps is the best and I want it back. This system is crap and it's not giving credit where credit is due. Get rid of it.
     
  4. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
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    Now with the DSQ'd Williams and Toyotas, it's possible RB could get two 2nd place finishes and be tied with MS.

    RB no wins, MS 7 wins, and they are tied.

    Stupid points system.

    Cheers,

    Jon
     
  5. jtremlett

    jtremlett F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2004
    4,032
    I agree entirely. HATE the current points system. In fact I think most of the rule changes made in F1 in recent times have been to the long term detriment of the sport and have only been made to try and artificailly close things up. Or in other words to compensate for the stellar job Ferrari are doing and the often poor job the likes of Williams and Mclaren have done of late. And that is the real issue anyway to my mind. The opposition need to raise their games. That's when F1 gets realy exciting: when there are several car and driver combinations genuinely battling for victory. If you go to a GP there is less and less activity on the track yet the prices are still exhorbitant.
     
  6. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    May 14, 2004
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    The current points system was designed to stop Ferrari from running away with the championship so early on in the season like in 2002. That is the only obejective of the point system. To keep the interest of viewers till the last race. Like we all saw last season.

    It is sad that Max Mosely and Ernie sit down to design rules like this. I know all the teams have to agree for the rule to be implemented, but Ferrari does not put up too much of a fight and agres to the rule changes because they know as long as the rules hold for everyone they can still win. Changing the rules of the sport because of a dominat team (Ferrari) and two superstar legendary drivers (MS & RB) will only hurt the sport after the two drivers retire.
     
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  8. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    a) RB would never be allowed the championship, even if MS had an accident. Just look at 1999 when Todt threw in the towel after Silverstone. It's Michael or nobody. I'll never get over what he did to Irvine that year. Napoleon.

    b) I like the points system as it keeps the WC open and also gives the midfield teams a way of measuring their perfomance: Sauber often came in 7th and 8th in the past years and never got points and was looked at like Minardi. Now they have a scale to be measured against.
     
  9. Ira Schwartz

    Ira Schwartz Formula 3
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    I agree with Jon- was just saying the same thing yesterday. The consensus seems to be that the new system is just an artificial mechanism to delay Ferrari's/Schumacher's ascension to the championships, and that makes little long-term sense. I don't recall such loud protestations when Williams or McLaren were dominant, although I'll admit that as far as the Driver's title was concerned, there was more competition then.
     
  10. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm not sure I'm buying into the anti Ferrari conspiracy theory. True, they came up with this system now, that MS dominates, but it really is not anti Ferrari, but anti domination. If it were another driver (e.g. Prost, Senna) the same would still apply.

    I think it has more to do with keeping TV spectator quotes up than with trying to keep Ferrari down. Remember all the years when Ferrari was in the dog house? Bernie wanted nothing more than for them to come back and win.
     
  11. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    Does anyone remember one of the proposed changes from two years ago to add weight to the cars based on the amount of points the driver has amassed? It would have the effect of making the front runner's cars slower as the season progresses. Imagine 250g added for each point. Near the end of the year a driver with 100 points would carry an extra 55 pounds of ballast in their car. Two drivers who dominate at the beginning (like Ferrari in '04) would be pulled back to the field as the season progresses.

    It would really make the constructors championship interesting as well. Every point would have to count. I'd still have the point system as it is, but award a point for pole as well. Smaller teams could go out with basically no fuel to try and get pole and get a few points.
     
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  13. sindo308qv

    sindo308qv F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    ok, next year let's have Ferrari sit out the first 6 races to let everyone build up some points.You know what? We'd still win the championship. It's just indicative of todays society, what happened to working hard to make things happen?Why penalize and critisize a team for doing a fantastic job.Every other team needs to catch up, winning a championship through penalizing Ferrari would be a hollow victory.
     
  14. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
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    Yep, its now far more important to finish every race in the points than to win. That reduces the value of trying real hard to move up one more position... the higher you get, the more important it is to make sure you finish there rather than worrying about moving up one more place... making for more boring races.

    I vote for an exponential points scale:

    8th-1; 7th-2; 6th-4; 5th-8; 4th-16; 3rd-32; 2nd-64; 1st-128pts

    In that way, 2 2nd's equal a first... that I can agree to. And four podiums equal one 1st. That I can agree to. And generally speaking, risking losing your current spot to move up one spot makes sense... its an even-payoff... the risk is the same as the reward.

    Of course, that means that one race past the halfway point in the season, WDC could be a lock. But then if a driver wins every race for half the season plus some points in one more race, then he SHOULD win WDC!! So what!
     
  15. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    If the championship is locked after half the season... TV ratings crash... I have no problem with that... but Ernie and the poor team gang (Jordan and Minardi)don't like that. Ernie is greedy to demand more money from TV networks and the poor gang needs money from sponsors based upon TV time they can promise.

    My preffered points system... the good old days
    10 Points to 1st Place
    6 Points to 2nd Place
    4 Points to 3rd Place
    3 Points to 4th Place
    2 Points to 5th Place
    1 Point to 6th Place
     
  16. Ira Schwartz

    Ira Schwartz Formula 3
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    Andreas- I wouldn't go so far as to allege an anti-Ferrari conspiracy, and agree that this is driven (no pun intended) by TV ratings, but like it or not, when a driver dominates at least the opening portion of the season as thoroughly as Schumacher has, he deserves a point tally that reflects his strong performance. I say this, by the way, as someone who believes that Micheal, while great, is over-hyped, but I do think he's being sacrificed at the alter of TV money.
    Ira
     
  17. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Agree to ALL of your statements.

    I'm very touchy on this subject as I remember painfully a meeting of Ferrari fans in Indy last year: They were all lamenting how unfair the FIA is with its new changes to be totally anti Ferrari. C'mon, grow up! It is pro TV, but not against Ferrari. If in a hypothetical Bizarro world JPM would be in MS' shoes in the Williams, we would still have the same debate over the points system. And nobody would be anti Williams. It's about ratings, stupid! (the stupid doesn't refer to you Ira, it was targeted at the folks I met, none of them from FChat btw).
     
  18. Ira Schwartz

    Ira Schwartz Formula 3
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    Andreas- The situation is pretty annoying in my opinion, but I think we're wasting our time (and are far too late) in lamenting the undue influence that commercial factors have these days in racing.
    Ira
     
  19. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    As a quick solution, I'd simply drop 2nd place from 8 points to 7. It would make winning worth a bit more without upsetting the apple cart.
     
  20. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Totally agree ...

    Pete
     
  21. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Yup !!
     
  22. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Points systems are tough...one like they have now rewards consistancy. Superbike was this way a few years back, one ride had the title by mid-season, so they changed the points like F1 did. The next year the same rider just relaxed, I don't think ever one a race, but gabbed the title pretty easily by finishing every race 2nd or 3rd....so they gave more points back to the winners...it's a cycle. I think a balance needs to be there. They need to give points far enough back to keep cars on the track...once they have any problem, there is really no reason to finish the race if you are out of the points. So maybe

    1st - 25
    2nd - 20
    3rd - 15
    4th - 13
    5th - 10
    6th - 8
    7th - 6
    8th - 5
    9th -4
    10th - 3
    11th - 2
    12th -1
    pole - 2

    something like that
     
  23. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I like the idea of getting points for pole. They used to do that and also a single point for the fastest race lap.

    The fastest race lap is a great idea because if you say have a first corner incident and have to pit it is worth racing on and racing hard to get that point ... and this benifits the spectator, but currently Max and all are ignoring the spectator.

    Regarding the cost issue of F1, how about banning the multiple million dollar unnecessarily flash and pointless sponsor entertaining motor homes. Lets put the money into the racing and reduce the amount of prostition of the sport to the hangers on. The McLaren motor home cost over a million dollars and does not make the car faster or improve the racing at all ... it just allows the sponsors or team principles to party and receive a BJ in comfortable surroundings ... pathetic IMO!

    Yes I understand some wining and dining is required for the sponsors, so the sponsors can seal deals with major clients with an invite to a race, but we should not allow it to detract from the racing ... which IMO it currently is.

    Pete
     
  24. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    I don't like the idea for giving points for pole or for fastest lap. You would see cars like Sauber, Minardi and Jordon go out there with minimum fuel load and a high rev limit set on their engine Just to do one fantastic lap during qualifying and on fantastic lap during the race. Then they would have to pit to refuel andtheir engine would probably not last the whole race.

    Next people wil argue lets start giving away points for who has the best color scheme on their cars. After all the color of the cars is also visually pleasing to some spectators. Then what is next... oh lets start giving away points for best effort, for best increase in position, and for who had the fastest pit stop. This would all go crazy. It would become pointless to win the race in the end. Screw that crap!!!

    Go back to the old...
    10 Points to 1st Place
    6 Points to 2nd Place
    4 Points to 3rd Place
    3 Points to 4th Place
    2 Points to 5th Place
    1 Point to 6th Place

    Or stay with the same as now... The teams should realize that Ferrari dominance will end in about 4 to 5 years. There is nothing the rules can change to end that unless they are not equal for all. Giving away points for random reasons (7th place, 8th place, pole, fastest lap, quickest pit stop etc etc) is BS because that would undermine the reason to win.
     
  25. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    I strongly disagree. Then you'll get the mid-pack competitors playing annoying games... such as taking a slow lap letting people bunch up behind them... and then taking off when the track is clear in front of them.

    And similarly, when others are on a "fast lap", you'll have people purposely screw up the first passing opportunity in order to "kill" that fast lap of their competitor.

    Lots of crazy tactics would result.


    Now, a point for pole is more sensible... especially given the current rule of having to start in race condition. HOWEVER, that would prevent some of the top teams from taking the 2-stop strategy as often... but maybe that's good if a top team takes the inferior strategy gambling that they can still win plus get the point for pole.
     
  26. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I must be too honest and a true sports believer, because I would never play those games myself. I can honestly say in my race career that I never purposely stuffed another competitors race other than trying to keep a on track position ahead of him. To be out of contention and to purposely play the tactics you mention would not make me proud of myself ...

    The point for the fastest lap used to be how it worked back in the 50's and 60's and I have no knowledge of these sorts of games. Also currently most of the pack are cruising to save the car and make the end, the difference between a cruise lap and a fastest lap is only probably a second or max. 2. You would hardly be holding up a Jaguar, Sauber, Jordan and Minardi for example if you were MS and reduced your lap time by 2 seconds ... you would still be something like 1+ seconds faster per lap.

    Anyway it is all hypothetical ... but hopefully there is more honour amongst modern sports players than what you suggest ... but then maybe I am an idealistic fool ;)

    Pete
     
  27. Koby

    Koby Formula 3

    Dec 14, 2003
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    The new points system has an upside and a downside... The winner definitely needs more of an advantage, but I think awarding points for 7th and 8th place is a great improvement. I would suggest everything stays the same, except that 2nd place receives 7 points.
     
  28. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    If its legal, then its part of the game... its not dishonorable... its the way the game is played. C'mon, did you miss the antics of the last race with the brake ducts. The antics of recent years with "cheater" launch control and traction control and so on. If the teams can get away with it, then they will. Any advantage that is legal or undetectable or unenforceable is considered "fair game" and will be leveraged. And that is not peculiar to F1, but true in all money sports... and most refereed sports. Its only in self-refereed sports that you see people not taking full advantage of the rules as they have been written.

    Sorry if I just burst your bubble, ;)
     

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