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Tipo 133F vs Tipo 140C engines

Discussion in '612/599' started by Themaven, Apr 9, 2020.

  1. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    I am relatively new to Ferrari ownership (6 years ago). I own a 575, which has a similar (less powerful) Tipo 133 engine to a 612. I have driven 599s, and remember vividly when the model came out the media buzz about the "Enzo engine". I thought the 599s engine was amazing, responsive, so easy to rev, enormously powerful. It was made out to be in a different league to the 575/612 engine.

    My question here is, are there owners of both who would like to give their opinions? Is the newer engine far better in every way? Or does the 133 have any qualities that persist beyond the 140?

    I guess two analogies might be:

    The last V12 engine change: 550 had more hp than F512M but arguably less character, and mid range punch.
    All new 4.3 engine in the 430 had more torque and power than 360's, but 360 apparently had more racing character (valves etc).

    What do people think with experience of both V12s?
     
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  3. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Darius- The F140C engine is basically a productionized Enzo engine with steel connecting rods instead of titanium, more restrictive exhaust, and milder cams and Motronic 7.1.1 tuning (initially, 7.3.2 late in CY 2007). Its larger displacement, 5999 cc vs 5748 cc, and variable valve timing give it an advantage in torque and hp over the F133F over the entire rev range. Like the F133E 575M engine, it did not take much tuning for the F133F to reach 540 hp from the 575M's 515 hp. Similarly, just adding 6-1 headers, lower back pressure cats, and mild tuning allowed the 599 GTO engine to reach 670 hp from the 599's 620 hp. The 599's higher redline of 8250 rpm, compared to 7500 for the F133F, combined with VVT to allow higher hp at near redline without compromising torque.

    A great engine that allowed future increases in hp for the F12 and 812 (F140G) with slight increases in displacement.
     
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  4. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
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    Thanks Taz. I think my car has an exhaust and a tune (guessing on the tune). That explains a lot compared to the other cars I drove.
     
  5. F140FG

    F140FG Karting

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    Based on what I heard and read the V12 in the 550, for example, has a lot of torque, especially at low revs. In the 599 the power is much more towards the top end. Please remember the huge gap in hp between the 2
     
  6. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    599 displacement is actually 5998 cc. Should have looked it up.
     
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  8. Qksilver

    Qksilver F1 Rookie
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    #6 Qksilver, Apr 10, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
    Darius, I'll add some detailed thoughts later, however I can confirm that they are incomparable (both tremendous in their own regard, just different). I'll add that the conversation cannot be objectively discussed without bringing the transmissions into the mix, as the engines (in my mind) are suited to each respective arrangement. Also throttle cable vs fly-by-wire make a big difference (to me at least).
     

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  9. F140FG

    F140FG Karting

    Apr 10, 2020
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    I'd indeed compare their engines with the manual gearbox for 2 reasons:
    1)the 550(very similar to the engine in the 575) was only available in manual
    2)Early F1 gearboxes were not good at all
     
  10. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Joe- 575s had digital throttles, just like the 599. Needed for the F1 system since a cable would not have enough throttle authority, like the F355 throttle, for rev matched downshifts. Both the 575 and the early 599 used Motronic 7.1.1.

    F140FG- The 575M F1 system was fourth or fifth generation, so works fine if you know how to use it, a big if for many drivers. Relatively slow at 220 ms, but still faster than manual shifting.
     
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  11. F140FG

    F140FG Karting

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    Yes, it was faster than a manual. But which one would you rather have? For me it's the manual without a doubt
     
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  13. Qksilver

    Qksilver F1 Rookie
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    You are correct, Terry - I was referring to my perspective with the 550, which I didn't make clear. And I agree on the F1, at least with my experience in the 599. It's very, very good.

    I only want to provide info on cars with which I have lots of experience. There's a lot of opining without actual experience on FChat, as you are well aware!
     
  14. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    F140FG- I chose F1, so that is the one I would rather have. Started driving 3 pedal cars in 1962 and had dozens, nice to learn a new skill set.
     
  15. F140FG

    F140FG Karting

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    It's great to see that you gave a reason for your choice. Personally I don't really like that era of F1 gearbox, so I'd go for the manual, but diversity is important
     
  16. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Most folks do not like the dry clutch F1 systems because they do not really know how to use them. It takes a while to learn to use them smoothly.
     
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  17. F140FG

    F140FG Karting

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    I'm not saying that I prefer the manual because I can't drive the F1, I prefer the manual every time. If I were to buy a GT3 I'd the manual version, even though the PDK is lightning fast and super easy to use. I like changing gear the old way
     
  18. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    Would be interested to hear more.
     
  19. Qksilver

    Qksilver F1 Rookie
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    Been a busy week, but I’ll try to form some thoughts over the weekend. In the meantime, I do think these videos offer a lot of insight.

    Note: the 550 was taken after a leather conditioning bonanza, and there is residual leatherique on the plastic cover. My OCD is bothered by it in the video. :)


     
  20. MRY

    MRY Formula Junior

    May 14, 2015
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    Taz,

    Do you think there is some more power HP to be gained in a 612 / F134 engine by exhaust headers or ecu mapping? (Say 72 hp so it could have 612 hp )

    I understand that a new set of cams, pistons, rods etc. can do this, but I’m curious about easy stuff instead of pulling the engine apart


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    MRY- Affirmative, just by adding Fabio's 6-1 header exhaust system and low backpressure catalysts, a 575M picked up 50 hp with no ECU monkey business. I doubt you could get to 620 ps in an F133F or F133H with just those changes, though. Even the 599 GTO only picked up 50 ps with all its changes. The 6 liter 550 GTS only got 600 hp, and those had open exhausts and relatively wild cams.
     
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  22. FIN612

    FIN612 Karting

    May 10, 2017
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    F133H with 6-1 headers, sports catalysts, straight open pipes, ECU tune ( including 8K rev limiter, AFR 12.2, a few degrees more timing ) and BMC panel filters.
     
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  23. Makuono

    Makuono Formula Junior
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    Wow! How much power and torque did those mods accomplished?
     
  24. MRY

    MRY Formula Junior

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    That’s interesting
    If it can get 50hp from headers then that tells me Ferrari left a few ponies on the table

    A few tweaks of the ecu could probably pick up a few points as well even with stock cams.

    If it got to 600HP that would be fantastic! I know I can’t feel 10-15 hp in the same car


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  25. MRY

    MRY Formula Junior

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    Do you have before and after graphs with afr on a wide band?

    It would be great to look at the readings and torque/hp curves across the rev range


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  26. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie
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    I remember the press guys from Ferrari always said, with the 599s and especially the F12s - be careful, these engines gain revs in a way you would not believe. I paraphrase, but it was interesting - that was the only warning they gave.

    But, does the 133 engine type have any advantages? I'm asking in hope, really...
     
  27. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Darius- Our 575M hydraulic lifters do not require snake oil to be quiet. Probably because our engine compartment is pretty noisy.

    The Type F140 engines are evolutions of the F133 so you can hardly expect them to go backwards. They are bigger, higher revving, have VVT for optimum high and low rpm power and torque, and the engines (and cars) weigh about the same.

    Our Maranellos are a lot smaller than a 599, though. Our engines were further forward, so pushing the 599 engine back required a longer (2750 mm vs 2500 mm) wheelbase.
     
  28. DZ-96

    DZ-96 Formula 3

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    Having a 550 (with 6-1 since about 1,5 years) and a 599 GTB F1 (6-1 will come) my statements.

    Like Joe said, you have to compare more than the engine only.
    The package as system makes the real difference.
    And these 2 packages are very different, each very nice in it's own way.

    The 550 has a very powerful engine, very civil, with the manual gearbox and the throttle cable, the 550 is very relaxed to drive.
    In the past I wrote, driving the 550 after a working day is to come down, to relax, a good nature, ...

    The 599 is much more nervous, 1 mm more throttle and the engine "explodes.
    I think most difference makes the e-throttle, mixed with the F1 gearbox.
    Because of these 2 differences, the 599 is much more nervous, adrenalized, ....

    In my pinion, a gated 599 will get much character of the old 550, and perhaps (I think) the 575 F1 has the character into direction 599.

    550 = 80's Music
    599 = Hard Rock

    Daniel
     

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