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Totally insane top speeds at IRTA test

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by sjb509, Mar 26, 2004.

  1. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    This weekend in Spain all of the MotoGP teams have a group test. On Sunday the fastest man in the test wins a BMW Z4. These are the trap speeds from Friday. Absolutely nuts, about 7mph faster than last year. The Ducati V-4 was partially developed with help from Ferrari and they have done aerodynamic tests in Ferrari wind tunnel, if I am not mistaken.

    1. Loris Capirossi, Ducati, 210.0 mph
    2. Nicky Hayden, Honda, 208.4 mph
    3. Makoto Tamada, Honda, 206.5 mph
    4. Max Biaggi, Honda, 205.6 mph
    5. Colin Edwards, Honda, 205.4 mph
    6. Alex Barros, Honda, 204.4 mph
    7. Neil Hodgson, Ducati, 204.2 mph
    8. Sete Gibernau, Honda, 204.2 mph
    9. Valentino Rossi, Yamaha, 204.1 mph
    10. Troy Bayliss, Ducati, 203.9 mph
    11. Ruben Xaus, Ducati, 203.4 mph
    12. Carlos Checa, Yamaha, 203.1 mph
    13. Shinichi Itoh, Honda, 202.5 mph
    14. Kenny Roberts, Suzuki, 202.1 mph
    15. Marco Melandri, Yamaha, 201.4 mph
     
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  3. aventino

    aventino Formula Junior

    Jun 16, 2003
    768
    Hong Kong
    Full Name:
    David L
    Sad thing is, as was case in the the Japanese GP, it is becoming awfully dangerous and there will be deaths again this year. Can't see how they can get safety substantially increased the way F1 has.
     
  4. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

    Jan 9, 2004
    7,732
    Nova Scotia Canada
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    Neil
    Soft walls, soft walls!
    That is slower than I thought you would say. 125-130 MPH was on the speed sheets last year or the year before, no?
     
  5. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    As these bikes get faster, some of the tracks they race at now may have to be revised in the near future. Several riders have been seriously injured or killed at Suzuka in the last decade, including Kato last April. A good F1 track does not make a good MotoGP track or vice-versa. However, I'm not sure if limiting the bikes would be the answer as crashes at full speed are pretty rare. Eliminating the walls and extending gravel traps would do a lot to increase safety.

    150mph on a bike is scary enough, I couldn't imagine doing 200+ lap after lap.

    Just a final thought, imagine crashing at 30mph. It would probably hurt and be generally unpleasant. Crashing at 210 would require the dissapation of forty-nine (49!!!) times the energy of a crash at 30.
     
  6. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

    Jan 9, 2004
    7,732
    Nova Scotia Canada
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    Neil
    I'm a moron. I was thinking Indy and also 225-230MPH. Good grief!
     
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  8. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,677
    But camera reconstruction dynamics of wrecks shows that even when the driver looses the car at 230 MPH, by the time it hits the wall the car has slowed into the 170MPH range simply from tire friction and aero drag. Bikes do not slow this fast.
     
  9. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    At the conclusion of the test today Capirossi (Ducati) was again fastest in trap speed at 215.87 mph. While IRL and CART cars go faster at superspeedways like Indy and Michigan, that is still pretty darn fast by any stretch of the imagination. Imagine sitting on the air intake cowl of an open-wheel race car and going that fast. That is what it is like for the motorcycle rider, no protection whatsoever in a crash. 200 on a bike must seem like 300 in a car!
     
  10. flyingboa

    flyingboa Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2003
    1,555
    Italy/India
    Full Name:
    Eugenio
    At the end of today's session, Capirossi declared that "6 mph of maximum speed more or less is not the point. The real difference is when you have to slow down..."
    As Jacques Villeneuse said, a race pilot will always prefer a faster car to a slower one, even if with the fast car you are risking more.
    Only way to ensure that tragedies are limited to a maximum is to make safer circuits. Into this optic the cancellation of Suzuka is a great step ahead.
    By the way, at least I am sure that this year's motoGP championship will be far more entrateining that F1

    Ciao

    Eugenio
     
  11. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    I disagree with the statement that the tracks should be changed. Take that to the extreme and all race tracks will become 1/4 mile drag tracks, or ovals.

    What needs to happen is off the track areas need to be made safer, so when a rider (or driver) makes a mistake they do not die from it.

    I do not want sterile boring race tracks like 90% of the current F1 tracks, and I bet neither do the riders (drivers).

    In the end the riders and drivers know the risks ... and live for the buzz, do we have to sterilise the world so much that we all fall asleep from boredom induced by the fact that we never take a risk anymore.

    I am working towards buying a motorcycle because of this reason. I now have a family and thus have the 'safe' family car and drive everywhere safely (as I naturally must) to keep my family safe ... but man the driver in me and my soul still want to play master of the beast that I am trying to control.

    This modern world is becoming so pathetic with all these rules and regulations trying to stop us harming our stupid selves ... and it even is infecting the sports we play for personal challenges. No wonder young people are depressed and committing suicide left right and centre. Who wants to be a teenager in this now dull world. The sad thing is in this over controlled dull world we still have the most innocent little children being harmed and murdered by sickos ... and yet we seem to be more worried about controlling speeds on a race track in events where the RIDER has very clearly and coheriently got on that bike and chosen to take up that challenge.

    We are focusing on the wrong things ... children are what we should be looking after, adults should be able to look after themselves and be able to make intelligent decisions.

    I do not want to see any rider or driver killed, but for Gods sake lets not sterilise this sport to the point that I can not even watch something that is exciting ... The riders know what they are doing, I did when I raced cars. If they do not want to race, they do not have to, they can be like the rest of us and live dull lives in our safe little padded cells (er, cars), driving along at the supposedly safe speed limit, etc.

    Pete
     
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  13. ferrari_kid

    ferrari_kid Formula Junior

    Jul 5, 2003
    768
    I don't follow MotoGP very closely, but a friend of mine told me they get up to 230 mph. that's higher then F1 cars, but that's because of gearing.
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    And lack of frontal area and downforce, etc. Bikes have often been faster than an F1 car in a straight line ... but the corners are where a lap time is made not the straights.

    Pete
     
  15. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,677
    F1 cars hit low 220s just before braking into turn 1 which can only be taken at 55 MPH or so at INDY. This is the same speed that IRL cars attain after several laps of flat out <if you can call it that> acceleration.

    An F1 car setup for <say> Bonneyville salt flats could easily break into the 270 range if not the 290 range; wings used as trim tabs to prevent instability but create no real downforce.

    F1 cars trade speed for lap time, great big wings and clever underbody aerodynamics create a lot of downforce so the cars corner in the high 3.6 Gs range, brake in the 4.5+ G range, and accelerate in the 1.4 Gs range. All of this downforce costs drag, and drag costs top speed. They payoff is lower lap times. High downforce track cause the teams to run downforce packages that limit top speed to 190 MPH or so, while the low downforce tracks allow as much as 230 MPH.

    Only the statistician worries about top speed, the drivers and teams worry about the lap time. BIG difference.
     
  16. ferrari_kid

    ferrari_kid Formula Junior

    Jul 5, 2003
    768
    I know the F1 cars can get a lot higher then they are allowed. But I've never seen that as the point to being a fan of F1. If I wanted to see cars go fast I'd watch IRL or NASCAR. They're fast and everything, but it doens't show the full range of a car's abilities, acceleration, cornering, braking (I'm sure they cover those but not to the extent of F1 racing). If anything I figured trap speed, at the end of a straight, would make a difference. Especially since that can effect lap times, depending on the track.
     
  17. Jameel

    Jameel Formula Junior

    Nov 4, 2003
    401
    Canada
    Very true SJB, before I had my motorcycle (2003 R6) I had 2 sports cars (nothing compared to a Ferrari, I had a Porsche Boxster and Twin Turbo Dodge Stealth). I managed to get to, an indicated, 250 kph (156mph) in both cars.
    I was naive enough to think it would be the same thing on the bike. After a few months of bike ownership I got the motorcycle to, an indicated 264 kph . Trust me it's a totally different sensory feeling, even tucked behind the wind screen, the wind noise, engine noise, and exhaust noise is incredible. I have to admit it was scary but the adrenaline rush is indescribable. I can’t even imagine doing 320kph (on a straight) and then having to brake hard for a corner.
     
  18. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Next time you go to a track take a stop watch and a notepad. Divide the track up into sectors. Make sure the main straight is one sector, and if there is another long straight make that a separate sector too.

    Now ensure you go to an event that has many different types of cars racing and then time each type for the straight sections and the curvy sections.

    I did this many, many years ago and it is extremely eye opening in why top speed is so unimportant. Acceleration is, and this affects top speed but FAR more important is the speed going through the corners. Note this speed through the corners also means that the car STARTS the straight at a higher speed ... sounds like a good idea to me ;).

    What I found was that a Formula Vee (powered by a VW Beetle engine with no wings and no downforce allowed, etc.) was only a couple of seconds slower down the straight sections than the most powerful single seater racing that day I did this. That was a Formula Holden (powered by a 3.8 ltr v6 Holden engine at around 300 to 400 hp with wings and downforce and carbon chassis ... bit like Formula 3000).

    Anyway the Formula Holden did a lap time of 56 seconds (I think) while the Formula Vee did around 1m10+. Thus the 2 seconds on the straight still leaves 12 seconds lost somewhere else and it was ALL in the corners.

    Thus you could put a Formula Holden engine in a Formula Vee and you would gain BUGGER all lap time, because you might get that 2 seconds (and maybe 1 more) back but that is all ... and yet you have gained over 200 hp!!!!

    Pete
     

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