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Twin turbo FF Feeler

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso/F12/812S' started by 6061TurboFF, Jul 7, 2020.

  1. 6061TurboFF

    6061TurboFF Rookie

    Apr 25, 2020
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    Midwest
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    Jay Lockett
    Hey all, I’m posting this thread because I’m genuinely curious if anyone would be interested in a twin turbo kit for a FF. I personally don’t have one yet but I’m planning to acquire one before 30 (currently 28) I’m a well versed fabricator in the Midwest that want to tackle this challenge because looking into the aftermarket support for the FF it’s not really there especially state side.

    the kit would be installed in my shop, and would include all the fittings, plumbing, fuel upgrades, turbos, custom exhaust system and finally proper tuning (Motec).

    thoughts? concerns? Questions?
     
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  3. klinkman

    klinkman Formula Junior
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    Jan 29, 2018
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    Eric C
    Volunteers to hand over their 12-cyclinder Italian jewels so a self proclaimed "well versed" 20 something fabricator can cut it up as an experiment, step right up!
     
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  4. 6061TurboFF

    6061TurboFF Rookie

    Apr 25, 2020
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    Jay Lockett
    Hahahahaha I’m not looking to take anyone’s car more looking along the line that if the kit was made, professional quality, actual dyno results would anyone be interested
     
  5. HBstig

    HBstig Karting

    Nov 3, 2019
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    HBstig
    DDE is having their F12 done.I would be interested in seeing the results and longevity on a f12 and then FF. Transmissions in our cars may be an issue.
     
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  6. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2015
    513
    The Netherlands
    I can’t see anyone wanting to take the beautifully responsive purr and howl of their V12 and turn it into a laggy turbocharged fart.

    If I wanted an FF with a turbo that badly, I’d simply swap it for a Lusso T.
     
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  8. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    May 29, 2019
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    I would go about it differently. If it was possible to fit them somehow, I would install a pair of small twin screw superchargers. They would work much better with the cam profiles and not ruin the sound. But not sure how one would go about it due to the PTU. Generally speaking, I would not throw a ton of money after tuning for an FF or Lusso. Sure you can bolt a pair of huffers to it, but what about the rest? Heavy car. I see a future with many broken parts and loads of downtime.
    No Thanks. Wrong platform.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  9. 6061TurboFF

    6061TurboFF Rookie

    Apr 25, 2020
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    Jay Lockett
    Lol “Laggy”
     
  10. 6061TurboFF

    6061TurboFF Rookie

    Apr 25, 2020
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    Jay Lockett
    Interesting take, I’m fairly new to these cars and will do more research but anyone know the breaking points? The trans? Hg etc?
     
  11. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    Nobody has tried. But I think we're talking trans, shafts, diff, inadequate cooling etc.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  13. Darkshear

    Darkshear Karting
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    Mar 31, 2019
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    Kalon Dillon
    The 20% maximum power to the front wheels from a 2 speed always-slipping clutch pack with half shafts that are as thin as they are--I almost wonder if this is only viable with a RWD conversion...
     
  14. HBstig

    HBstig Karting

    Nov 3, 2019
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    HBstig
    That only applies in Rain and Snow setting.
     
  15. HBstig

    HBstig Karting

    Nov 3, 2019
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    HBstig
    Lusso T is a completely different engine platform with less cylinders, smaller displacement, different block and different heads.
    You would still retain the sound of the v12 and in today's tech age between tuning capability and turbocharger choice it would not be laggy or farty.
     
  16. Darkshear

    Darkshear Karting
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    Mar 31, 2019
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    Right but it's still worth considering that added complexity when evaluating the "breaking points" as the OP asked. Even in the Sport Manettino setting, adding twin turbos to a FF will likely add additional stress to the PTU. Just a question of if it's a compelling amount of stress to warrant an accommodation or abandonment of the concept.
     
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  17. HBstig

    HBstig Karting

    Nov 3, 2019
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    I agree. I think the OP should look at other platforms that share PTU's with FF and see if they added forced induction. Adding two small turbos and tuning the car to a driveable 800hp at the crank may not be an issue, but who knows. F12's share PTu components and they put down more power.
     
  18. Altoria F

    Altoria F Karting

    Jan 24, 2020
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    #15 Altoria F, Jul 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
    For sure the idea of a twin turbo 6,3 V12 is pretty exciting!
    I run a turbocharged (Xona) E85 3,8 flat6 in another car: >1000hp and 1150Nm, a true blast.
    BUT: The FF (F12, 812, La F, etc...) gearbox is the Getrag DCT750, for 750Nm...
    The overall turbocharged engines interest is the torque, so the story is "dead in the egg"!

    Better working, as Dallas Performance or UGR, on the Audi V8/10 platforms.
    Porsche are of course very good platforms.
    I also believe the N/A Ferrari V12 is a kind of "jewel" which does not need to be so much modded, I would even extend this idea on the whole Ferrari cars.
     
  19. dgoldenz94

    dgoldenz94 Karting

    Apr 13, 2020
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    David Gold
    I foresee blown engines/transmissions in your future. $$$$
     
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  20. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    It's a fluid coupling, not a slipping clutch pack. Basically just a torque converter. Not even sure it will pose a problem for the shafts. It is less than 100 hp and power is regulated by rpm and fluid pressure. Unless you greatly increase those two things, it will not send more power to the front. At the end of the day, an FF and a Lusso is primarily an RWD car. If you put it in CT OFF and floor it, it will just be the rears that turn to barbecue sauce while the fronts drags the car along using only a fraction of the power. A power adder will not change that on its own.

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  21. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    That is far from the truth.
    Let's adress lag. If lag was so easily avoided, do you think McLaren would be struggling so much to combat lag? If you build a turbo system for an FF, you will not have the technical advantages Ferrari has. Yes, you might be able to find turbos with variable geometry, and if you pay enough, you can get custom geometry turbines and compressor wheels. But who's going to develop the induction system to support it? To get the engine to a response level like a 488, will take a seriously engineered system. Everything upstream from the compressor will have to be precisely matched. Runners, plenums, intercoolers, cam profiles and timing, it's all part of the final product. Downstream you have gates, manifold shape, scavenging etc. Not trying to be a stick in the mud, but I don't care which turbo you use, you will not get remotely close to the response.

    There is only one type of power adder that will retain or even improve throttle response, and that's a low-helix or straight lobe low efficiency Roots supercharger. But I personally think an FF will look odd with a 10-71 sticking out of the bonnet. It would probably have a throttle snap to rival a 2004 F1 and a sound that would wake the dead, but I'm not sure it's the right approach. That being said, I would not turn down the chance to experience an 1100 hp FF with a 10-71 on top running on C16 lol. Please, by all means:D

    On a more serious note though.

    Sound? You will not only be putting a great big restrictor in the exhaust path, you will have to modify the manifold runner length. Even with merge collectors and even lengrh runners, you will get a muffled sound.

    Once you have the externals sorted, what about internals? As an absolute bare minimum, you would need to gap the rings. I think we can both agree that the prospect of lifting a ring land is not very good. Preferably a set of low compression pistons should be made. Even a nice set of CP slugs with all the fancy coatings are surprisingly affordable all things considered. But the engine still needs to be torn down for them to be installed. While you can use the stock cams, a set of custom sticks with lobe profiles suitable for forced induction would be best to keep cylinder pressure in check. But with the added cylinder pressure a set of stiffer valve springs is a must. Question then is whether or not the lifters will collapse at high rpm. Lastly a set of inconel exhaust valves should be used.

    So, here we are. Even with the bare minimum internal mods, i.e gapping rings, new valve springs and new exhaust valves, a complete teardown is needed.

    As has always been the case.

    Powerful
    Reliable
    Cheap

    Pick two.

    And the notion of you retaining the response? Forget it. Not even the Lusso T has the same response - and that's virtually lag-free. Getting to a point where the turbo V12 would be as snappy as the Pista engine? Not in a million years.

    Sorry to be a bore, but it is just not as simple as you may think.

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  22. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula Junior

    Jul 1, 2015
    513
    The Netherlands
    Show me a turbo car which isn’t laggy from idle and you can laugh. Even Ferrari haven’t worked out how to fix that.

    I notice you aren’t laughing about the sound issue though...
     
  23. Bamsefar

    Bamsefar Formula Junior

    Nov 26, 2012
    394
    Sweden
    The only way to remove lag in a turbo, is using an electric turbo to push air into the engine before the real turbo gets up to speed - that would also assume that the electric turbo always is on when the real turbo is loosing pressure. Not sure that this way of solving this would work for the long term though...
     
  24. HBstig

    HBstig Karting

    Nov 3, 2019
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    Lol, I hope you are joking. Electric fan from the infomercials?? We have thousands of different kinds of turbos and plenty of tuning options available. Between the two categories you can eliminate the lag.
     
  25. Bamsefar

    Bamsefar Formula Junior

    Nov 26, 2012
    394
    Sweden
    Well then it is easy, please inform us all how you do that. Because it is rather basic in my mind: You like the power from when the turbos are providing boost, then you need to have that boost ALL the time - no boost, lower or no power. Now if the engine is in idle or low RPM, then the turbo - what ever model or construction you ever choose - will NOT provide that boost. And since the turbo is using the heat from the exhaust from the cylinders, well then the boost will start to build AFTER you press down the accelerator. There simply is no way to get boost from the exhaust gases before you press the accelerator - physics simply does not allow this. So you can not eliminate lag - you might be able to reduce it, but never ever remove it.

    OR you might be able to do something by letting, for example. an electric turbo do that part of the job - the boost will be there before you even get the exhaust gases up in temp and volume. As a small reference: https://www.garrettmotion.com/electric-hybrid/garrett-e-turbo/
     
  26. Elasto

    Elasto Karting

    Aug 27, 2014
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    Andreas
    VW produced a turbocharged engine with a compressor to eliminate turbo lag ....... back in 2006.
     
  27. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
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    James Moran
    You could build a system that would be insta-boost as you're not really going to whack it with a ton of boost at 12.3-1 compression.

    Lag on a factory vehicle has a lot to do with emissions based calibrations and catalytic converters.

    Twin 3076's would feel just about naturally aspirated.

    I would have no personal interest in it if I had an FF.
     
  28. Altoria F

    Altoria F Karting

    Jan 24, 2020
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    #25 Altoria F, Jul 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
    Yes a couple of HTZ3076 (ball bearing) wouldn't produce noticeable lag. Lag is almost inexistant with my "little" 3,8, way better than the oem VTGs, you need to drive it to believe it, so with 6,3 liters...
    That said, even if the trans and else could hold no way for me to plan such a built with my FF.
     

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