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Unable to bleed Front Right Caliper on a 360

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by AleGJ, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. AleGJ

    AleGJ Karting
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    Feb 1, 2014
    53
    North Italy
    Hi everyone.
    Last month I was out for a drive with my 360 when I realized that the front right caliper (well at least one piston I would say) seized in the closed position.
    So, bad smell of brakes and of course the front right brake overheated.
    It overheated so much that the heat melted the wheel plastic center cap:

    [​IMG]

    After removing the wheel I was able to separate the pads from the caliper and so I could drive (carefully) back home.

    Once home I took off the caliper in order to inspect it, and this is what I found:

    [​IMG]

    As you see one of the dust seal was in pretty bad shape. I then decided to have all four calipers repainted and completely refurbished.

    The company that did the job said that apart that bad dust seal everything looked in not so bad shape.

    I put them on the car today, fitted new pads, and then bled the system using my pressure bleeder.

    Everything went smooth as usual, except the front right.

    It's simply impossible to bleed it. Nipples open, pressure in the system, but nothing. I tried also the old fashion way pumping the brake pedal but it feels heavy, like the nipples are still closed.
    And the pistons are not moving at all.

    All the other three are working normally.

    I bought the car 2 and a half years ago and it had a full service before delivery, brake fluid included. I checked the reservoir in my pre-purchase inspection and was super clean, with nice and fresh fluid.
    It was the same now that I installed the refurbished calipers.

    Any ideas? It's several years that I'm doing maintenance on my cars, but 've never seen something like that before.
    It's frustrating, because a brake system is something quite simple, and I have no idea how to solve the issue..
     
  2. mello

    mello Formula 3
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    Jul 12, 2013
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    Swollen rubber on brake lines?
     
  3. flash32

    flash32 Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    Or cooked fluid blocking in hose ..or combo or both rubber deformed and cooked fluid

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
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  4. phil99

    phil99 Rookie

    Feb 26, 2015
    26
    Wellington, NZ
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    Phil S.
    I also suggest checking that the brake hose isn't blocked- just loosen it and see if any fluid comes out there. After hearing about this, but never witnessing it, I have had it happen to me twice in the last year. In both cases the hoses weren't that old and looked perfect from the outside. In the first case, the hose was almost completely blocked but some fluid could get through- the brake seized on and as things got hotter, it only grabbed tighter. Not impossible this was the cause of all your problems.

    Could also be a blocked bleed nipple- but aren't there two of them? In which case unlikely.

    Good luck,
    Phil
     
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  5. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    Nov 11, 2003
    1,742
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    Brian Brown
    It is very common for the brake hoses to clog. If one is bad, I would replace all four. Also check the flow through the bridge pipes between the brake caliper halves, as these also clog up. The original Shell brake fluid was blamed as a possible cause, especially if is is not flushed annually. I would use a good quality fluid and flush it every year. Brake fluid is cheap.
     
    ///Mike likes this.
  6. AleGJ

    AleGJ Karting
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    Feb 1, 2014
    53
    North Italy
    First of all thank you all for the inputs.
    I would tend to exclude the caliper as they have been just stripped down, rebuilt and tested.

    My biggest fear actually is the ABS Modulator, because I know it's prone to fail. But wouldn't the symptoms be different?

    You are pointing out a clogged hose (that makes sense and that is something that I considered as well).
    But are you speaking about the rubber section only? Or even the hard lines that comes from the ABS Modulator can clog? I mean, what is more common?

    [​IMG]
     
  7. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran
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    Dec 11, 2003
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    Bugtussle
    Rubber lines have a finite life. It is the most likely failure point. Brian's advice is excellent: replace them all.
     
  8. hessank

    hessank Formula Junior
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    Fred
    +1
    I would also invest in the SS version (longer life and less expansion
     
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  9. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran
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    Dec 11, 2003
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    Bugtussle
    Agreed. Specifically, Goodridge.
     
  10. vincep99

    vincep99 Formula 3
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    Jun 8, 2009
    1,599
    I had a bad (collapsed) rubber brake line on my Vette, and it acted like a one-way check valve: it held the pressure on the caliper. Cooked the caliper just like yours
     
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  11. MerlinTech

    MerlinTech Formula Junior
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    Mar 5, 2010
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    Wade Williams
    Happens all the time. I change all four rubber lines on any car that I find has an issue on one wheel. Also, that is why it smoked a caliper to begin with. The master cylinder can produce hundreds of pounds of pressure but the caliper can not on the return side so the pressure stays and smokes the caliper, pads, and sometimes rotor if run too long.
    Four new rubber lines and if the outside bleeder does not flow well, pull the lower crossover line (it is steel brake line) and clean it out. I know OP had his rebuilt and it won't be an issue, but anyone else checking in with this issue later will need to know that.
     
  12. AleGJ

    AleGJ Karting
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    Feb 1, 2014
    53
    North Italy
    Thank you all guys for the replies.

    Actually I was thinking about the brake line as well, but I was fearing something bad with the ABS modulator (even if the behaviour was not what I was expecting from a shot ABS modulator).

    Of course I'm gonna replace all four with braided lines, I'll let you know the outcome then!


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  13. John_K_348

    John_K_348 F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2013
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    I wouldn't be so sure about the rebuilds. If the bridge pipes were not actually cleaned, they might not be passing any fluid at all. They would have to check each side and not just replace the seals and pistons. Brembo says never split a caliper and now I see here that people have removed the pipes. That's what I want to do as my fronts have lost flow to the outside halves like the OP. My insides are fine and I have fluid at all four corners. I was able to clear crystallized fluid from the drivers rear but no luck on my outside front halves. I will check again tonight and see if I can "reverse" bleed them with the hoses clamped. I want to try and clear the pipes without removing them. Denatured alcohol or fluid will be my approach. I will also apply a bit of pressure from my floor pump on the inside screw, then standard vacuum on the outside screw from my hand pump. Back and forth. I may switch pressure directions too to try and push it loose. I used a long ss wire to clear the rear caliper. By the time I got the hand bleeder on it it was bubbling out fluid from the bleeder. Success! Cross your fingers on the fronts. I am scared to death of removing the pipes since they are painted and pretty tight in the casting threads.
     
  14. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
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    Why not remove the caliper and work the pistons back and forth. Then compressed air.
     
  15. Keith360

    Keith360 Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
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    Keith Williams
    I would say...Rebuild the calipers, seals are cheap. Do not disconnect the bridge line unless absolutely needed. I rebuilt mine (4) for less than $100 and some time. The dealer will only sell the whole caliper but I found a company that sells the seals and dust boots. “Girodisc” girodisc.com. I don’t see the seals on their website, I think I called them and ordered. Also think about grease to lube the seals. I had a small jar and some little packets of grease made for Brembo brakes. The jar I bought was from Porsche.

    Be careful when blowing the pistons out of the calipers. Use a block of wood to prevent excessive travel when applying compressed air to the inlet.

    Replace the brake hoses with whatever side of the fence you’re on. I elected for braided stainless/Teflon which specifically state DOT Requirements.

    As long as your this far, evacuate the master cylinder and replace with new fluid. I would have liked rebuilding the master cylinder but couldn’t find the seals alone.
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  16. thorn

    thorn Formula 3
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    Aug 7, 2012
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    Tallahassee, FL
    I doubt it's the modulator.

    I'm not personally aware of the bleed procedure for the 360, but many ABS cars have a specific method that differs from non-ABS. So in any case, be sure your bleed procedure is correct.

    And I agree with everyone else - replace all 4 lines, and the caliper seals.
     
  17. AleGJ

    AleGJ Karting
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    Feb 1, 2014
    53
    North Italy
    Guys problem solved.

    The calipers have been completely rebuilt with original Brembo seals and then tested.
    The company that did the job said that they actually were in pretty good conditions.

    I replaced all 4 brake lines with steel braided hoses from HEL.

    As soon as I installed the new hose I was able to bleed the caliper with no effort at all... easy job as usual.

    I kept the old rubber hose in order to make an “autopsy” :D
     
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  18. Keith360

    Keith360 Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
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    Keith Williams
    I'm glad you had success.
     
  19. tomberlin

    tomberlin Formula Junior
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    Apr 9, 2005
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    tom berlin
    Just to add to the discussion a 2005 Volvo I work on had something wrong with the ABS unite that stopped fluid from passing trough in one circuit, so it can happen.
     
  20. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Rookie
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    That is why I like simple non anti lock brakes!
     
  21. thorn

    thorn Formula 3
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    Aug 7, 2012
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    If the isolation valve is stuck in a closed position, then you'd have problems doing a manual bleed on that circuit. However, the ABS controller should also be reporting an error via a constant dash light - so at the very least, you'd know that's a potential reason.

    And have a larger problem to deal with, of course.
     

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