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Updated classified section rules - effective 1/1/2019

Discussion in 'Ferraris' started by ylshih, Jan 2, 2019.

  1. ylshih

    ylshih Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner Advising Moderator Honorary

    Mar 21, 2004
    13,998
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    Yin
    #1 ylshih, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
    Annual Ad limit: the number of ads an individual subscribed user is allowed to list in a calendar year is determined by their subscription class.
    • Rossa Subscribed = 3 car ads and 20 parts/items ads in the individual classified sections
    • Silver Subscribed = 1 car ad and 5 parts/items ads in the individual classified sections
    • Classified Subscribed = Unlimited car and parts/items ads in the commercial classified sections
    Individual vs Commercial Classified sections cross-posting
    • Non-subscribers and Rossa/Silver Subscribed can reply to ads and contact sellers in either section
    • No sponsors, dealers, brokers, or any other commercial party may list ads in the individual classified sections
    • Sponsors & Classified Subscribed are allowed to respond to Wanted ads in the individual classified sections
    Daily Post limit: An individual subscribed user is allowed to post at most 1 new ad per day for any unique item offered for sale.
    • Duplicates/multiples of the same item or disparate items offered as a single lot at a lot price can be listed in a single ad. For example, 4 matching wheels, 10 of the same keychain, a small collection of Ferrari books for a lot price, are OK.
    • "Bumps" which are the use of non-meaningful posts such as: "bump", "still available", "great deal", "unique item", "anyone?", etc. are not permitted. Individual subscribed users are only allowed to bring their ads back to the main page by posting substantive new information, new pictures, or a meaningful change to a sale parameter, such as price or terms. For example by posting "Price reduced from $200 to $175", "Shipping and handling now at my expense", etc. Posting to bring your ad back up to the main page counts against the daily post limit.
    • Replying to questions or comments from interested parties does not count against the daily post limit.
    "Storefronts", where many different items are sold in 1 ad thread, will no longer be allowed. Each unique item must have its own thread.

    General Rules and Guidelines
    • Rossa/Silver ad subscriptions are intended for private users who have items for sale infrequently, small collections that they may sell off in bursts, or sometimes higher numbers that are low in value or of unique benefit to the collector/enthusiast community. Classified Subscribed ad subscriptions are intended for users who are operating commercially, whether it is their full time or part time business, have items for sale continuously or otherwise atypical volume, or operate in a manner intended to generate profit.
    • All commercial activity requires Sponsorship or Classified Subscription.
    • Moderators will ultimately decide if something is commercial or not.
    • Please see the Advert Posting Guidelines for information on creating an advert and controlling the thread status tags.
    • Asking price is required in order to list item for sale.
    • The sale or commission of any non-OEM item with trademarked, copyrighted, or otherwise protected features is strictly prohibited. You may be asked to provide proof of permission/licenses to sell your items.
    • Commentary (revised, see Post #128):
      • Anyone posting on an ad must refrain from personal attacks on or trolling of any other poster. Any such posts may be deleted and will be subject to infraction/ban/etc at the discretion of the moderators. All other commentary is allowed.
      • Users are encouraged to make offers in private through “conversations” (top right under username, or just go to advertiser’s profile “start a conversation”
    • When in doubt? Contact a moderator or admin, Jack (Booker) or Rob (Rob Lay)
    ---

    Additions to Terms of Use

    *Reporting Users*
    We strongly encourage you to help improve this community by following the rules and reporting those that do not. Please report any and all content/users that you find break the following rules:

    (Update to rule)
    1.3 No "Spamming": Please do not double post or cross-post the same message in multiple forums. You will not mass-PM or mass-email multiple members of this community the same message. You will not post for the sake of increasing views, clicks, or post count. You will not post outside links or content without having been involved in multiple discussions or otherwise demonstrating your positive involvement with the community.

    (in copyright section)
    Use of ™, ®, © materials in any non-OEM items for sale requires a license agreement from the holder of the TM or copyright. If you intend to produce and sell materials that include logos or other licensed materials, please be prepared to provide a copy of your license agreement. Items with Cavallino Ramparte logos, for example, unless factory, would require a license from Ferrari NA or Ferrari SpA. Any classified with such materials will be placed on hold and the seller contacted to provide a copy of the license. Repeated violations may result in a permanent ban
     
  2. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2004
    5,879
    SF
    Sounds like we can no longer offer compliments about a car, correct?

    It also seems we can no longer say "Great price, someone should scoop this," and similar.
     
  3. darth550

    darth550 Five Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jul 14, 2003
    57,951
    With Stu
    Full Name:
    St Mark
    Yin,

    GLWT = Good Luck With Thread!

    :D :D
     
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  4. ylshih

    ylshih Global Moderator
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    #4 ylshih, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
    We're moving toward letting an ad be about the item for sale and not letting partisan users either try to depress the market for a car OR pump up the market for a car, limiting those who try to make it about whether they like the way a seller does business or not, and in general try to reduce the controversies that flare up in the ads.
     
    GTUnit, Island Time, Sfumato and 7 others like this.
  5. hammergb

    hammergb Rookie

    Sep 2, 2017
    32
    Westminster, MD
    If I didnt already have so many cars already I would buy these rules today. Definitely going to appreciate in time. GLWR!

    Sent from my SM-G930V
     
  6. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Veteran
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    Apr 30, 2014
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    " "Storefronts", where many different items are sold in 1 ad thread, will no longer be allowed. Each unique item must have its own thread."

    Why???? You do realize this is the polar opposite of what you preached previously.
     
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  7. ylshih

    ylshih Global Moderator
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    Mar 21, 2004
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    Yes, "will no longer be allowed" implies that. :rolleyes:

    Storefronts were introduced back when users were allowed unlimited parts & collectibles ads and were meant as a moderation technique to reduce the footprint of certain advertisers on the index page. In May 2017, the admin introduced ad limits for parts & collectibles ads by subscription level. We left it alone to see how it would work in the new context and it became clear that it was tedious/impossible to monitor item counts in storefront threads. So we're now requiring each item to have its own ad thread so item counts can be tracked.
     
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  8. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Veteran
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    What about existing storefront ads? Will we be able to update when we change a price or have new, helpful information?
     
  9. ylshih

    ylshih Global Moderator
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    Mar 21, 2004
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    Existing storefront threads will be closed as we encounter them.
     
  10. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    70,179
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Well, it's no real hardship to me, as all of the car parts in my garage, made it into the (now closed) Garage Sale thread. Which was indeed emulating a storefront.

    However, as I was planning to clear an inventory of maybe 200 Ferrari related posters and art, it's a real loss to your users.

    I won't bother with the first 20 posters as individuals, (it would use up my yearly quota!) as it would only be a tip of the old Ferrari poster iceberg.

    You have passed a new standard, and then enforced it retroactively.
    It certainly works against anyone trying to move a large number of items, which as noted above was the original purpose of the "storefront"??

    I am not selling multiple advertising brochures, or Papal key chains.
    It was vintage parts.

    So, just for me, what is the New 2019 policy of "buying and selling" in Collectibles Section?
    This was once pretty tolerant of a "Selling 1:18 collection" type of thread.....

    Happy New Year,
    TIA.....

    Oh, a PM response is fine, or ok to answer here too.
     
  11. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 25, 2005
    5,338
    Campbell, CA
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    John Zornes
    Obviously you see much more of the enforcement issues than we do AND this probably doesn't impact but a very small percentage of users. BUT, as a user it "feels" like you have stripped value and interaction from the site. It makes people think 'maybe I need to look for a different venue' and I doubt that is what you were angling to achieve. Just food for thought.

    By the way, not sure I know a better solution right now.
     
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  12. ylshih

    ylshih Global Moderator
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    The problem was you could ship $1M of inventory through a $15 Silver subscription under the old rules and some people were starting to do that.

    I do agree that the hobbyist/collector that has lots of extra models or literature to sell or trade is getting caught up in this change without a viable subscriber level for their needs.
     
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  13. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    As a sponsor, I have another take on this:

    There are a bunch of guys running part time businesses selling lot of items and doing so for profit. Paying $15 or $50 per year is not really fair to sponsors that spend thousands.

    I think the spirit of classifieds for members is selling off a few unneeded parts here and there or some swag.

    It seems to me FCHAT is trying to balance this.
     
    SoCal1 and jjmalez like this.
  14. eyeman1234

    eyeman1234 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Dec 25, 2006
    1,245
    Boca Raton, FL
    What you want is a FERRARIBAY where a "small" percentage is culled from all non-sponsor sales transactions on the website...?
     
  15. Jdubbya

    Jdubbya F1 World Champ
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    Dec 28, 2003
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    So this will and would have totally screwed guys like me who had a cache of parts left after getting rid of the car. I had somewhere around 200 items to sell and ended up selling the bulk of those items in one lot to another Fchatter. I couldn't do that now with the new rules. Would have hurt me and him. I get the need for balance but it seems like it'd be easier to see who's running an actual business using just a subscribed user account rather than trash it all. Seems to me this will head things back in the direction that it used to be with a few people dominating the ads because they just post another new ad for a single item every day.

    I never noticed the classified subscription but the price would totally negate it for a hobbyist. What about maybe a per storefront type ad price and limit it to 200-300 parts or something. I dunno what the answer is, I guess I'm just glad I got my stuff sold before the change. I can't imagine the cost or headache it would have been to sell it all on Fleabay or CL?!?

    But rules are rules and we'll either live by 'em or deal with it elsewhere.
     
  16. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

    Aug 28, 2014
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    Dave
    1/5 or 3/20 ads per year seems too low, for reasons others have stated. You'll be turning away "gentleman sellers" at the potential buyers expense. And I think overall, the commentary in the ads helps more than it hurts. 99% of people who buy and sell here are buying and selling to existing users, usually existing owners. Most positive/negative commentary is preaching to existing choirs, respectively, which seems harmless enough. The rule against negative comments or trolling in the classified seemed to be effective enough, and while it required active moderation to enforce, I don't see these new rules being any different in that respect. On the other hand, sometimes a BS car gets outed, or a seller gets productive feedback that will help them achieve a better price, and the buyer receive a better car.

    These new rules seem to be missing the forest for the trees to a large degree, IMO.
     
  17. ylshih

    ylshih Global Moderator
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    Being able to sell 200 parts for $15 was a screaming deal, and ending a screaming deal doesn't mean anyone is getting "screwed", it just means that the deal going forward is more typical.

    80-90% of the rules posted above have been in effect before this, they were merely restated so users didn't have to piece together notices from multiple threads to get a current rule set.

    The 1/5 or 3/20 limits have been in effect since 5/2017. The Classified Subscribed subscription level was in effect well before that.

    The negative commentary rules have been in effect since 6/2015. We amended them to the extent that we added an exclusion for positive commentary as well as negative commentary. By commentary we primarily mean opinion, such as "I love/hate this configuration", "I hate sellers who won't post a price", etc. Users will still be able to post factual statements, either postive or negative, such as "I used to own this car and the seller is omitting a crash with chassis damage in his description", "there were only 3 cars of this model sold that year in green", and buyers will still be able to follow up with seller feedback of their direct personal experience for that sale.
     
  18. Jdubbya

    Jdubbya F1 World Champ
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    I agree it was a great deal but it also means in the future people absolutely won't be able to do anything close to the same here. It's a loss for the community in search of a few more bucks profit in my humble opinion. In other words another member here would not have been able to get a "screaming deal" on a bunch of parts because they'll all be listed on Fleabay which will require higher selling prices to cover the fees and BS the seller will end up dealing with there.

    I loved selling stuff here, never ever had any issues with deadbeats, always got paid, usually before I even shipped anything by the way. Even buying stuff it's always been perfectly as described and arrived in a timely manner. Always have been VERY easy deals. A HUGE part of that is dealing with other enthusiasts FROM this community that know each other. Now it'll be almost all commercial ads because they're the only ones that will be willing to pay $2500 for a years worth of posting ads.

    So the 308 parts I sold had a book value of well over $10k easily, probably closer to $15k if they all sold for top dollar. But in reality for most of them it was what I paid for them so not some huge markup where I was making money. I sold them for a lot less than that because another member saw the value in grabbing nearly the whole lot in one sale. There's no way I would have paid for a classified subscription at what about a 30% fee to sell about $7k worth of stuff.

    I sold my stuff and who knows if I'll ever own another Ferrari but if I do I'd have hoped to maybe find deals on parts and pieces here but it's not gonna happen like it did in my case or lots of others now. It's Motor 1's business and obviously they can run it how they like and I see where there might be some lost potential revenue the way things were.

    I'm done bitching now, carry on and thanks for listening and responding.
     
  19. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2004
    5,879
    SF
    I don't understand excluding positive commentary. We're all originally here to comment on Ferraris. What's wrong with saying "I love that color! GLWS?"

    It was a nice sense of community. Now I am afraid to post anything in the Classified area.
     
    david likes this.
  20. stekkefun4

    stekkefun4 Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed BANNED

    Nov 22, 2006
    2,094
    Belgium - Europe
    Personally, I don't have an issue with the new rules and they are in line with many people's expectations. For a number of years now, the Ferrari owners community is shifting to new platforms and many people have noticed that the number of threads, reactions and items for sale are declining on this platform. In fact, a medium like Facebook and Twitter hold the same topics and threads on Ferrari group pages, and does not apply restrictions on any volume, it's the page owners who are the moderators and that works well.

    F-Chat used to be the main source for technical issues, F discussions, authentic items for sale, nowadays there are many alternative platforms on the market and for a number of people, F-Chat has become an 'acte de présence', meaning a platform where one is represented, but it's no longer mandatory.

    With a changing landscape, businesses are looking for new ways of income and one of them is to redefine services like F-chat is trying to do here. Getting the most out of things that do well, cutting back on things that don't.

    I will remain active on F-chat for some extra years, because of the many friends I made here and to use the old technical threads, which apparently have been made available already on other platforms.

    The F-chat mods are great people and I like them very much and wish them all the best to make this platform withstand the test of time. :)
     
  21. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

    Aug 28, 2014
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    That makes more sense than how I was interpreting it- regarding the comments, I mean.

    I'm not really a seller (save the occasional sticker) so I have never needed to know how many items one is allowed to sell. But as a potential buyer of parts, the idea that I'm potentially missing out on parts because a seller with the goods I need has hit their limit is a frustrating concept. It just moves the forum away from the "car community" model towards a commercial model, which is fine I guess but it still makes me a bit sad to see the community swap meet aspect diminished.

    But just my 2 cents.
     
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  22. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Some good points in this thread. Here is a suggestion, perhaps set the classified as subscription based or have a listing fee per each item? That may bridge the gap between a $50 Rosso and $2500 full subscription. I think it would be best if the software could be coded to manage it as the mods are going to be doing a lot of work counting adds by many members.
     
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  23. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
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    Aug 25, 2005
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    Dave, your points are good and very valid. I understand the issue better and clearly see the need for some change. As I noted, these changes probably don't impact most users and does impact those it should. Yin, thank you for responding in such a great manner (as always).
     
    Dave rocks likes this.
  24. SoftwareDrone

    SoftwareDrone F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jan 19, 2004
    6,134
    San Jose, California
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    Mike
    I totally agree. Little guys like me who only wish to post perhaps one ad per month just can't compete with these big outfits who are posting several items per day.
     
  25. thorn

    thorn Formula 3
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    Aug 7, 2012
    1,911
    Tallahassee, FL
    #25 thorn, Jan 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
    I'm glad this was changed. GLWS and "nice color!" posts add nothing to the transaction, clutter the listing, and bump threads with pointless input.
     
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