News

Upgrading Alternator Information

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by paulchua, Mar 5, 2014.

  1. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Moderator Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    10,358
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    So my alternator is kaput. I'm hoping the following helps fellow Mondial and 348 brothers.

    The Mondial 89-91 uses the Delco Alternator and the 92-93 uses a Nippon Denso alternator.

    The Delco is crap, hence Ferrari upgraded it to the Nippon Denso. A lot of the problems with the Mondial can be traced to the garbage alternator, as I've seen power spikes happen to fry various fuses here and there.

    My Delco is rated at 105 amps and has a crappy thing base plate, no cooling fins, no thermal contact to the alternators case, and the cooling surface has 4 tiny holes to cool it - it's crap.

    Don't go out and buy a Ferrari alternator - that will cost you $1,000 + - the same exact alternator can be had for about $125 - Delco part number is 10479969 - These are 100% compatible with all connections except the pulley which is a 30 second job to change with a impact wrench.

    The internals are from the CS 130 family FYI

    You can buy it from USA Built High Output Alternators, Upgrades, Conversions, Starters, Parts, Kits and More! which will outfit it with a high power rectifier and regulator and ship it to you for under $200

    I also ordered a Yellow Top Extreme battery to replace at the same time.

    I'll let you guys know how it goes after it gets here and is installed.
     
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. porphy

    porphy Formula 3

    Dec 9, 2009
    1,180
    LouisvilleKY/Switzld
    Full Name:
    Randall Gatz
    Paul, My 1990 October build T has a Nippon Denso alternator as stock.
     
  4. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Moderator Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    10,358
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    #3 paulchua, Mar 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  5. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    Ah that's fab, many thanks for this info, mine is an 83.
    I shall put this in the archives. :)
     
  6. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Moderator Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    10,358
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    Hi Bell Bloke,

    I hope the information helps, not sure if it's the delco alternator in the 83' but I wouldn't be surprised if it is - if not - I'm sure you can get the non-ferrari branded one for 1/10th the cost if heaven forbid your alternator fails. I've read taking the alternator out yourself is pretty straightforward as well. I'm too wimpy/scared to do it myself so I'm going to drive it to a local shop for a quick swap out! I'll post the results here.

    Cheers
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 31, 2011
    997
    Terra Incognita
    Full Name:
    Charles
    #6 mulo rampante, Mar 6, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
    Just to relate my experience:

    In the QV coupe, changing the alternator is very easy. I would expect the same in a 3.2.

    The '83 QV uses a Bosch p/n 0.120.469.537 alternator which is rated at 80A. It is large and heavy given its output current rating. IMO, the biggest issue with these is heat soak given the proximity to the header. (Another weakness is that there is no remote sense, so by the time the output current gets to the fuse panel the voltage has already dropped considerably.)

    I think the quickest solution with these older units is to have them rebuilt (cheapest) or trade them in as a core on a rebuilt unit. I looked through a lot of literature, and I think the combination of this alternator with the heat shield on the back and the disc-shaped cooling fan are unique to the Ferrari application. The alternator itself just might cross to the alternator used in the Open/Vauxhall Senator... I don't know for sure. Man, I looked though a lot of Bosch literature and pictorial references, and these units appear to be rare as rocking horse sh-t. Stock seems to be constrained to the Ferrari world.

    At one point I gathered a pile of information regarding Bosch alternators of that time period, as well as a lot of info on the design specifications for the Gates industrial belts that are used with them. If anyone needs engineering info. I probably have a pdf or a link to where to find it. Particularly with regard to the belts. I also produced a set of crude engineering drawings (with good measurements) of the Bosch unit, useful when considering replacements.

    Some folks have complained about the belts. Personally, I like them. I think it is critical to ensure alignment between the various sheaves ("pulleys" to us regular folk). The best way I found to do this is with a laser boresight tool. (A laser pointer might work well if you can make sure that the outer case is concentric with the beam.) Anyway, you rest the laser in the v-groove of the alternator sheave, and rotate the sheave until the laser shines on one of the other sheaves. Then you can shim things for perfect alignment -- the idea is to get them all in one plane. I hope that explanation is sufficiently clear, it really does make a difference.

    BTW, the belts used in these older designs are more commonly found in industrial equipment, refrigeration, and the like. Gates claims that they are exceptional at high RPM thanks to their lightweight construction and that they can carry a lot of power for their size. I believe this is true. The downside is that some of us have had the belts 'flip over', which destroys them pretty fast. Also, the sheaves for these belts are not available from stock. Instead, Gates will provide you with the design specification, or make one to-order, with the attendant industrial price ($hundreds).

    The reason I mention the sheaves is that, if you do the math, you'll find that the alternator is spinning at some ungodly RPM when the engine is revved up. It would be nice to fit a larger sheave so that the alternator turned at more modest RPM.

    So, here's what I'm doing:

    1. Bought a modern Delco-Remy CS-144 unit that is good for 130A, has remote sense, and is similarly
    'clocked' to the Bosch unit. (It's also been sitting on the shelf for 2 years, this is a back-burner project.)

    2. Run an additional sense wire from the Alt. to the fuseblock so it can regulate based on the voltage seen there. This is in-place but obviously uncommitted at this time.

    3. I want the new alternator to spin more slowly. The old air pump sheave is sized for the same type of belt, and it is a larger diameter. I'll either turn a mating piece to adapt this to the alternator shaft, or just make my own sheave of suitable diameter. This will allow lower alternator RPM (thus longer life), and the higher-amperage unit should still be making good current even at low RPM. There are also some modest changes to the alt. mounting.

    And that's all I know.

    Edit: And none of this applies to the 't'. Just thought this would be a good place to share this info.
     
  9. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 31, 2011
    997
    Terra Incognita
    Full Name:
    Charles
    #7 mulo rampante, Mar 6, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  10. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

    Dec 6, 2012
    1,839
    UK
    Hi Paul, now I have no aircon getting the alternator out is easier than jacking the car and taking the wheel off....... With the aircon however... Well it's a bit tight with lots of hand grazing and bad language, if you don't have a car lift. Ok I'm probably exaggerating a little bit. :)
     
  11. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Moderator Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    10,358
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    haha - I hear you my friend!!!
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Moderator Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    10,358
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    #10 paulchua, Mar 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Update.

    Got the alternator in - it's an Delco with upgraded "Guts" - dropped it off with a new Yellow Top battery at Roselli Foreign Car Repair in San Jose California. Meet the owner - seemed like a nice chap. Usually Dino Motors handles my car, but these guys seem like they may be quicker/cheaper. I met Roberto the owner, he seems like a nice guy - no complaints thus far.

    From what I read, this could have easily been done with some jacks, but I'm too big of a wimp to get under the car - paranoid visions of metal crashing down on my face come to mind. Yeah yeah, I'm a wimp.

    I'll let you know how the upgrade goes.

    New Alternator (including shipping) $180
    New Yellowtop Battery $150
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. Burch1

    Burch1 Formula 3

    May 26, 2012
    1,028
    Singapore/Carmel, IN
    Full Name:
    Greg
    Money well spent Paul! (agree the jack feeling - a bit creepy everytime I get underneath...)
    Cheers,
    Greg
     
  15. raf456

    raf456 Karting

    Jan 27, 2013
    178
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Full Name:
    Robert Freiburghouse
    My mechanic installed a 160 amp Delco to replace the 105 amp unit that failed on my 89 T. It uses the same mounts as the original unit. Other parts damaged by my failed unit were also replaced. Total bill including labor was $732.
     
  16. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Moderator Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    10,358
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    Thanks all for the comments, the best thing for Ferrari to have done was add a voltmeter to measure the battery power-I'm sure some folks have done that in the past. Just to give you some context again why I had to do this.

    The car will often die when driving (intermittent) and the battery will be dead. A way to test if the battery is charging is get a voltmeter (cheap, $20) and measure the battery when you start the car - it should be around 13-14 voltz - mine didn't budge and stuck around 12.1 (which is already pretty low when attached to the trickle charger) it really should be around 12.6 12.7

    First thing you want to do is check the connectors on the battery - they often can get pretty corroded and dirty. If you clean it up and still see the voltage not moving - check the alternator connections, the pulley, the cable, etc. A shop can tell you for sure if the alternator is bad.

    The Mondial comes with either the AC Delco 89-91 or Nippon Denso alternator. I had the Ac Delco which you can buy online Delco part number is 10479969 - These are 100% compatible with all connections except the pulley which is a 30 second job to change with a impact wrench.

    The thing is - the stock alternator is pretty crummy so have a shop, Quick Start Automotive Electric
    1-616-606-5045 | E-mail: info@QSALTS.com
    in Michigan order the alternator for me and upgrade all the "guts" so to speak to a 140 AMP version. They also did a bunch of other stuff to make it more robust. Cost was $185 shipped for the whole thing.

    Here's the key - often a bad alternator can mess up a perfectly good battery and vice versa so it's best to replace alternator and battery at the same time to ensure no "cross contamination" so to speak. I bought the Yellow Top Extreme battery to replace at the same time. ($150 on Amazon) - this Battery is pretty much the Rollys Royce of batteries in the real of sanity (some elite batteries out there are $1000+)

    This can easily be changed on jacks, but I'm too much of a wuss to do it myself - so I hired somebody to just swap out the alternator for me. Should be a 1 hour job - 1.5 hour job at most!
     
  17. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Moderator Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    10,358
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    So got a call from Roberto (owner of Roselli Auto Repair in San Jose, CA) looks like my water pump is leaking as well - replacing it with taking out the gas tank, replacing the alternator (new belt), new battery - $2500

    Ouch!

    Keep you all posted.
     
  18. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Moderator Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    10,358
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    #15 paulchua, May 2, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    So visited the shop today - they are going to be dropping the fuel tank and replacing the water pump and replacing the main belt while they are in there. We also noticed a slightly leaking oil line, replacing that as well.

    It's finally summer here in the San Francisco Bay area - I'm super itching to get it back on the road!

    He is replacing the water pump with an aftermarket one that is a much better performer (i forgot the brand - they also make exhausts I believe) Replace the oil as I hear some 'ticking' from the engine that Roberto felt could be due to the oil....
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. itswhatido

    itswhatido Rookie

    Feb 20, 2013
    47
    East Texas
    Full Name:
    itswhatido
    Very useful information here. Thank you all. I have an 83 QV 3.0L and I am interested in upgrading the alternator.

    Have been reading myself blind about options for upgrading my original Bosch 80A alternator, and, have also researched the 3-wire sensing upgrade discussions.

    I would like to follow the 3-wire sensing logic and upgrade my alternator on the 83 QV. I have not located a thread or discussion anywhere where this type of conversion has actually been successfully completed on a QV without fabricating the mounting brackets.

    - Will the 3.2 brackets for the AC Delco options fit without modification to my 83 QV 3.0?

    - Will the Nippon Denso alternators and brackets used on later Mondials fit on 83 QV?

    If I have missed a thread somewhere, please let me know or PM me here.
     
  20. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 31, 2011
    997
    Terra Incognita
    Full Name:
    Charles
    #17 mulo rampante, Nov 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I can't answer your questions directly, at least with authority. This is what I know:

    My QV alternator has a 51mm (aka 2 inch) "foot" for mounting... visible on the left hand side of my photo of Bosch 0.120.469.537 in post 7.

    Paul's picture of the Denso unit looks like it shows a 2" foot as well. (even if it's a 1" foot you could cut a spacer to make up the remaining length.) So I think that unit has a chance of working. The clocking on the back looks good. Connector is different.

    Do we have a Denso part number for it?

    I posted a picture showing a couple of mounting arrangements here, just when I was first researching this: 308 QV alternator - FerrariChat.com

    I think you could use almost any alternator that has a 2 inch foot, just swap the pulley to accommodate the 7M belt.

    Other issues: You might also have to use a different connector. The remaining attachment point for the adjustment arm may or may not be in the right position, but I think you could do something with spacers to compensate for that. There are aftermarket arms made for the hotrod community, and you could probably find something there if you want to avoid fabrication.

    Also, I've noticed that the distance between the pulley and the mounting foot varies for different alternators. So you might have to put a spacer under the pulley on the replacement unit... if this distance on the replacement unit is longer than stock, then there's no simple solution.

    I'll try to find those measurements I made of the Bosch unit -- very useful for comparing with outline drawings of other alternators.

    I did a lot of reading on this as well, the manufacturers' literature is very helpful in this regard. I sense where you're coming from though, the research is pretty unrewarding and it takes a long time. What we need is a good list of part numbers and measurements for different years.

    The attached photo shows my QV alternator bracket when I first got the car. (Yes, it's very ugly. Yes, it's been cleaned, repainted, wiring replaced, etc. since then.) To point here is to show how the 2" foot attaches... that casting basically has a clevis that the foot fits in between.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  21. itswhatido

    itswhatido Rookie

    Feb 20, 2013
    47
    East Texas
    Full Name:
    itswhatido
    #18 itswhatido, Nov 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I know how thorough you are with your engineering research. I suspect you have command of the dimensional information on the 124655 Mondial 3.2 alternator bracket. Included your photo of the Mondial QV 117924 alternator bracket and the 124655 Mondial 3.2 alternator bracket side by side for comparison.

    Just trying to contribute to the discussion as I am a very new member and curious.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  22. jgoodman

    jgoodman F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2009
    2,972
    Central PA
    Full Name:
    Jay Goodman
    Why is the shop removing the gas tank? I haven't had to replace my alternator but there are multiple fragile fittings on the tank that if you don't have to remove, I wouldn't.
     
  23. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 31, 2011
    997
    Terra Incognita
    Full Name:
    Charles
    That's great information, many thanks for this. Just looking at the photos, it looks like the 3.2 bracket will retrofit just fine to the QV, allowing alternators with two "feet" to be used. The more I look at this, the more I think you can fit just about anything with relative ease. The issues would be:
    1. clocking of the alternator ... easy enough with mfg's data sheets.
    2. fabricating a heat shield if needed, proximity to the manifold being an issue.
    3. offset of sheave relative to belt plane, might require spacers depending on alt. design chosen.
    4. different connectors... if you can solder/crimp this is easy. Also fitting of remote sense for regulation.

    motore trasversale?
     
  24. jgoodman

    jgoodman F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2009
    2,972
    Central PA
    Full Name:
    Jay Goodman
    Forgot Paul had a t.
     
  25. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Moderator Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    10,358
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    Hi Guys, just wanted to give a 4K update on my upgraded alternator.

    So no problems charging, no issues with electrical..the only Gremlin I'm facing is the battery/alternator light will flicker on high/fast revs.

    I don't sense any issues with the car and the light always goes off. In slow driving the light never goes on.

    Just in case I'm going to take it to an alternator shop to check to see if the alternator is working as it should.

    The guy at the shop mentioned that since the alternator was upgraded (they put heavy duty guts in there) the light could be flickering because of too much power (as well as too low)

    I figured I might as well check for sure. I'll have them check the alternator belt tension while they are at it.

    I'll report what I find, hopefully it's a non-issue and if so - I couldn't recommend the alternator enough from those guys...just perhaps find a solution about regulating the warning the light to accommodate the extra power.

    Cheers
     
  26. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Moderator Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    10,358
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    Okay public service annoucement..that alternator that I got can't seem to stand the heat...

    The voltage drops due to the increased heat from the engine in high revs...I'm going to rebuild with more robust parts...

    It works fine now, only happens 2-3% of the time in a drive....so I'm okay...but scheduling to drop of the car and get it rebuilt in my next vacation.
     
  27. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Moderator Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    10,358
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    another update...my mechanic says the heat was fine..it was actually just a loose connection...so the upgrade is good...I'll update again if I see anything different.
     
  28. Bshortie

    Bshortie Rookie

    Nov 22, 2014
    32
    Columbus, OH
    Full Name:
    Brian Short
    Paul,
    Thanks for the update. I just hate threads that trail off with no idea of the end result. It's refreshing to see someone give updates. Even if no one responds it sure helps when someone is searching the forums with a similar problem.
     

Share This Page