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US cars have extra 70kg (154lb) vs. Euro cars??

Discussion in '360/430' started by Brian C. Stradale, Dec 7, 2003.

  1. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Does anyone know what is the extra 154lb of stuff that must be added to a US 360 above and beyond the Euro 360?

    How much do glass side windows weigh? (vs. Lexan)

    ======

    Notice the difference in weights for the Modena and the Stradale from the Euro Owners' Manual vs. the US Owners' Manual:

    Weight from -- Modena -- Stradale -- Delta
    Marketing -- 3064lb -- 2822lb -- 242lb
    Euro OM -- 3086lb -- 2844lb -- 242lb
    U.S. OM -- 3240lb -- 2998lb -- 242lb

    In all cases, the savings between Modena and Stradale are the same... 242lb. In both cars, the delta between Euro and US is 70kg or 154lb... so, the same junk must be added to both for US regulations.

    I'm guessing the Marketing numbers are for countries with no adds for country-specific regulations. So, even Euro cars are carrying around an extra 22lbs. But US cars are carrying around an extra 176lb total!

    As far as the 154lb, I'm guessing that some of it could be the delta between Lexan windows and glass. Since Lexan is an option in Europe, they probably use the car with Lexan as the base weight... but since its not an option in the US, they use the car with glass. But surely those side windows don't weigh 154lb do they?
     
  2. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    Brian, I'll also guess that it is made up of the steel door intrusion bars mandated in US cars that aren't in non-US cars.
     
  3. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    The biggest difference I can see is the air injection system. The US version has:
    - different headers with 2 x 4 injectors and a common rail
    - air pump
    - air control valve – one for each side
    - additional oxygen sensor – one for each side

    I always thought that the fuel evaporation control system was US only –wrong – it exists in the EU version too – however it looks like it has a different layout.

    found also this on old F-chat:

    Euro cars also have less weight to carry around due to the front and rear impact absorbing bumpers.
     
  4. Jason

    Jason Karting

    Dec 1, 2001
    126
    My guess is you're looking at "dry weight" vs. "curb weight". That 154 lbs. is fluids and gasoline.

    Dry weight is never listed for US specs for some reason.
     
  5. JSinNOLA

    JSinNOLA F1 World Champ
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    Mar 18, 2002
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    Don't forget that Europeans are typically in better shape than Americans;)
     
  6. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    No, the Euro manual explicitly states "with fuel". So, that's not it.

    Further, my theory on glass vs. Lexan is also lame... because Lexan is not even an option on the Modena, and the delta is the same on both Stradale and Modena.

    The other changes that Thomas mentions might add a little weight, but nowhere near 154lbs. And my understanding is the bumper is not different in the 360.
     
  7. spyderman

    spyderman Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,436
    Toronto - Canada
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    Spyderman
    Brian:

    Like you I would also like to find out where the diffrences are between the Euro and North American car.

    Regarding the bumpers, I understand the US car was 2.5 MPH (4 KM) bumpers...which is the same as the Euro car.

    Hoping the diffrences can be explained!! As it stands it does not make sense!

    PS I was thinking about what weight one would save with going with straight pipes (removal of cats) to the stock 360 CS muffler system. I am guessing 20 lbs x 2 = 40 lbs??
     
  8. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
  9. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
    2,669
    Boston
    How about we actually weigh a Euro and a US car with a full fuel load?

    Given the snow in MA right now (and I'm in England this week so no shovelling for me for the moment) - anyone down out of the snow belt volunteer?
     
  10. 355fiorano

    355fiorano Formula Junior

    Oct 21, 2003
    773
    London
    Full Name:
    Philip
    It is true that the US spec cars are heavier. I have been told it is the bumpers and the side protection. You can see the difference of the meatier bumpers on the 308s. This weight disadvantage (as well as some aesthetic effects on older cars) is why US spec cars are cheaper here.

    I think the solution to a good deal is for US buyers to buy their cars from Europe and visa versa :)
     
  11. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
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    Indeed that was true. But I've also been told that the bumpers on the 360 are the same in Europe and US. Anyone have concrete knowledge that they are different?
     
  12. 720

    720 F1 Rookie

    Jul 14, 2003
    2,623
    So. Cal and No. Utah
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    Rick
    i asked a tech guy i know at ferrari FNA about the difference in weight between the euro stradale and US stradales. all i could get out of him was glass windows are heavier than Lexan windows, US bumpers are heavier than euro bumpers and Canadian
    bumpers are even heavier than US bumpers. and US stradales have extra crash protection behind the dash assembly and pre-cats in the exhaust system. hmmm. this last comment about "pre-cats" makes me wonder if the US stradale would have a different sound than the euro stradale???
     
  13. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Okay, I had breakfast this morning with a 360 Parts Manual.

    There does not appear to be any difference in the door construction
    whatsoever. No additional side-impact beams, or any other such.

    The bumpers are different due to the different sizes of license plates.
    There does not seem to be any difference in construction.
    There are not any different parts behind the bumper cover. So, unless
    its a lot thicker or a different heavier material, I think there is little weight
    to be found there.

    Below is a complete list of all things that differ Euro vs US in the Modena.
    Most are very light items that can't possibly account for any weight gain.
    The only heavy items are:

    Core Engine (Thomas listed some air injection stuff; probably emissions stuff)
    RH Fuel Tank (this could be a lot heavier, I guess)
    Depression Accumulation Tank (not sure what this is)
    Catalysts (these could be a bit heavier)

    I'm guessing the 154lb is nearly all in those four items.
    Any others in the below list that could account for the delta?


    US-specific parts:

    Core Engine - 182020 (Euro) vs 182024 (US)
    Ignition Control Unit - 178765 (Euro) vs 178784 (US)
    Depression Accumulation Tank - 177060 (Euro) vs 180315 (US)
    RH Float Valve - 171097 (Euro) vs 180381 (US)
    LH Float Valve - 171098 (Euro) vs 180383 (US)
    RH Fuel Tank - 175419 (Euro) vs 181338 (US)
    Union (Fuel Tank) - 180059 (non-catalyzed) vs 177638 (catalyzed)
    LH Valve with Pipe - 171132 (Euro) vs 180384 (US)
    RH Valve with Pipe - 171099 (Euro) vs 180382 (US)
    Fuel Vapor Filter - 174782 (Euro) vs 180132 (US)
    Pipe to Disareator - 175965 (Euro) vs 180373 (US)
    RH Catalyst - 174211 (catalyzed) vs 180082 (non-cat) vs 180019 (US)
    LH Catalyst - 174210 (catalyzed) vs 180083 (non-cat) vs 180020 (US)
    RH Outer Rear View Mirror - 65731910 (Euro) vs 65732010 (US)
    Front Bumper without light washers - 64861610 (Euro) vs 655005310 (US)
    Front Bumper with light washers - 65580710 (Euro) vs 65581110 (US)
    Rear Bumper - 64852810 (Euro) vs 64853710 (US)
    LH Safety Belts - 65408300 (Euro) vs 65802500 (US)
    RH Safety Belts - 65408200 (Euro) vs 65802400 (US)
    Instrument Board - 164290 (Euro) vs 177242 (US)
    Rear Fog Light Switch - 180712 (Euro) vs 180687 (US; dummy switch)
    AC Control Set - 65520500 (Euro) vs 65803000 (US)
    Rear Light Connecting Cables - 173429 (Euro) vs 173430 (US)
    Glass Lifting Electronics - 178708 (Euro) vs 178810 (US)
    Direction-Emergency Light Relay - 171798 (Euro) vs 171799 (US)
    Car Stereo - 168855 (Euro) vs 177783 (US)
    Anti-Theft Electrical Boards - fairly country specific, 182137 for US
    Tire Pressure Plates for different tires vary Euro vs US
    Optional Spare Wheel Kit is different Euro vs US
    Roof Panel Upholstery and Accessories are almost all different Euro vs. US
    All the headlight parts are different Euro vs US


    That's it. So, can anyone offer any info on the "heavy" stuff in that list?
     
  14. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
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    While the HP numbers so far concern me, HP is inherently difficult to measure given today's adaptive engine electronics. In CONTRAST, weight is very easy to measure and should be very consistent car to car (other than options). Sooooo, I want to revive this thread on weight... afterall, many of us were far more interested in the weight savings than the HP upgrade... AND there's more chance we can make further weight savings than there is that we can add more HP. Sooo....

    Has anyone weighed their US-spec 360 Modena?
    Has anyone weighed their Euro-spec 360 Modena?
    Has anyone weighed their Euro-spec Challenge Stradale?

    Does anyone know the weights of any of the above stuff that is different between US and Euro spec 360's?

    Thanks!
     
  15. MarkCollins

    MarkCollins F1 Rookie
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    Jul 2, 2002
    3,196
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    Brian

    It's all those Cup holders you guys demand :)

    I know it's no help I'll get my coat :)

    Slightly more helpful if I see Wazza (hopefully Sunday) I'll see if we can convice him to take his CS to the local weighbridge to confirm the weight
     
  16. bostonmini

    bostonmini Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2003
    1,881
    Hehe, if this is true, that the euro is that much lighter than the us spec, than the euro weighs about what our stradale does!!!! that means that for about 20% off, we can all have stradale weight savings by doing what was previously taboo, buying euro specs! ;)
     
  17. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
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    Exactly! And here I am, a guy selling my Euro 360 Modena in expectation of my Stradale.

    20% off? Even more if you're happy with a used one!

    It does make me stop an think. Possibly no more horsepower and possibly less than 100# of weight savings... or maybe none at all.


    Surely somebody is familiar with these parts and can give some estimates of their actual weights? Even if we don't know the Euro vs. US delta for each... just knowing the absolute weight of the US parts would give us an idea of the max weight savings.
     
  18. bostonmini

    bostonmini Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2003
    1,881
    Brian, this is just a non-fcar owner speaking, but after the **** they put you through, if i were you id level with them and say after all the hassle, screw the stradale, just put me tops for a 420 or whatever, worst comes to worst you KNOW youll make money on it if you hate it and resell it to make a buck. I love ferraris, but am kinda hating the company right now...
     
  19. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    from a thread about the CS exaust - response to question form technical F person:

    the CS service manual also does not show any US/EU specific remarks in this section anymore (as previously found in the Modena one)

    my current asumption is that the EU/US version of teh CS are basically the same (regarding HP/weight)
     
  20. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
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    Huh? But the Owners' Manuals have different numbers. Why would that be?
     
  21. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    ok I re-read your thread - got confused
     
  22. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    sorry got kicked out - slow link - ýou might look into this:

    DIN kerb weight, i.e., car with all fluid and fuel tank 90% full, but no driver.

    EEC (European) standard, which is DIN kerb weight + 75kg (68kg driver and 7kg luggage). Note that many magazines confuse between DIN and EEC figures thus made wrong comparison between cars.

    SAE (American) and JIS (Japanese) the weight of a motor vehicle with standard equipment, maximum capacity of fuel, oil, and coolant; and, if so equipped, air conditioning and additional weight of optional engine. Curb weight does not include the driver.

    depending on what standard you use you get significant differences - I don't have the manual with me but it is important to check what it references, e.g. as with the HP discussion even the US owner's manual quotes CV and an EC standard
     
  23. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
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    In another thread:

    Hmmm... now I don't remember from what thread/source I got the 2844lb number for the CS owners' manual? So, fixing the chart from earlier:

    Weight from -- Modena -- Stradale -- Delta
    Marketing -- 3064lb -- 2822lb -- 242lb
    Euro O.M. -- 3086lb -- 2822lb -- 264lb
    U.S. O.M. -- 3240lb -- 2998lb -- 242lb

    Soooo, the Euro owners' manual shows the CS to be 176 lbs lighter than the US owners' manual! Now this might be explainable by the Lexan windows... I could see them weighing 22 lbs less than glass and I could see them NOT being quoted in the normal weight reduction of 242lb. But that still leaves 154lb to find! and recover!!


    One interesting question: Despite quoting a rotund 2998lb and an anemic 409hp (instead of 425hp), does the US owners' manual still quote the same performance figures as above??? If so, then either different standards are at work, or typos are.
     
  24. robinh

    robinh Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2004
    622
    Cambridgeshire, Engl
    Full Name:
    Robin
    One of the other threads did a dyno on the 360CS and measured the weight at 3096lb - a US car
     
  25. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    From 0 to 60 mph : 4,1 sec.
    Standing 1/4 Mile : 12,1 sec.
    Standing Mile : 22,0 sec.
    Maximum Speed : 186.4 mph (300 km/h)

    I typed the English text exactly as in the manual (with transalation errors and the all important .4 mph)

    I am not sure if you have followed that - someone checked with FNA - response was the 409 CV number is a typo and the car has 425 CV = HP
     

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