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V-10 Engines

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by docdavid, Feb 20, 2004.

  1. docdavid

    docdavid Formula Junior

    Jan 23, 2004
    384
    Toronto/K-W
    Full Name:
    Mike D
    Can someone clarify this for me?

    I've heard that there are some inherint problems with v-10 engines.
    Can anyone clarify this for me Thanks

    MD
     
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  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    Hmmm, the only issue I know of regarding v10 engines is that before the 5 cylinder engine was invented, engines were always designed so that 2 cylinders were at TDC (Top Dead Centre) at the same time, ie. one cylinder was firing the other was exhausting. This meant that you have exactly opposite firing sequence ... and thus the best firing balance you could get.

    With a 5 cylinder engine, designers thought to themselves 'do we really need to do this?' ... and the answer is ofcourse not, and thus a 5 cylinder engine just fires evenly 5 times in 2 engine rotations. And the engine balance is okay because we have enough cylinders to smooth it all out ...

    A v10 would be the same as a 5 cylinder in that you would not have 2 cylinders at TDC at the same time, and thus engine balance theoretically is not optimal ... again I do not think this is an issue at all in practice ... but Mitch will be able to explain this part better.

    There are no other issues with a v10 ... just a 10 cylinder engine ... nothin magical, just happens to be what F1 current use.

    Pete
    ps: I remember when 5 cylinder engines first came out and some thought the extra cylinder was the air conditioning pump ... ;)
     
  4. docdavid

    docdavid Formula Junior

    Jan 23, 2004
    384
    Toronto/K-W
    Full Name:
    Mike D
    <<ps: I remember when 5 cylinder engines first came out and some thought the extra cylinder was the air conditioning pump ... >>

    i can't say that my past goes back that far.

    Engine balance is what i thought would be the biggest issue.

    MD
     
  5. 4re gt4

    4re gt4 Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2002
    2,279
    Roseburg, OR
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    Hans E. Hansen
    Mitch Alsup is the expert here, but I agree in that I *think* there are some very serious balance issues here.

    Mitch elsewhere did a talk on primary, secondary, and tertiary (sp?) vibration. I don't pretend to understand it all, but as an example, a 4 cyl is perfectly balanced in the primary mode. Two pistons are going up at the same time as two are going down. Perfect. However, there are serious rotational issues going on, and in practice, engines over perhaps 2.5L w/o balance shafts shake like crazy.

    I'm hoping Mitch will chime in here, but I don't think a V10 is really that stable.

    Mitch's previous comments covered V10s and V8s (both flat and 90deg crank), but I was hoping he'd comment on I-6 and V12. Enzo, his royal self, seemed to prefer the V12 design, and for several reasons. But it's my understanding that it is probably one of the best. Mitch????
     
  6. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,543
    The twilight zone
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    The Butcher
    The problem with a V10 or straight 5 is balance. The same is true for V6 and straight 3 I think. In a straight 4 (or flat crank v8) the second harmonic can be balanced. In a straight 6 (or V12) the 3rd harmonic balances and produces a very smooth running engine. With a 5 or 10, the primary forces can be balanced, but the harmonics are much harder to handle and mostly can't be balance, so the engine just doesn't feel as smooth. It still runs fine and makes power.
     
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  8. cinquevalvole

    cinquevalvole Formula 3

    Feb 6, 2004
    1,149
    Germany, Bayern
    Hi all,

    we can remember two major reasons for the change from F1-V12 to F1-V10:

    V10 is better in:
    - weight & size (allows larger fuel reservoir and better breaking etc...)
    - fuel consumption of the engine itself.

    The new F1-V10 could do longer stints then the old and heavy soaker V12.
    This way Ferrari went back to the podium.

    For the Enzo this doesn't matter as there is no fuel stop strategie so far.
    So it can keep his V12 :)
    BTW: Are the any complaints about fuel consumtion from Enzo owners ?

    forza

    cinquevalvole
     
  9. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    The twilight zone
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    The Butcher
    I'm pretty sure the only reason the F1 teams switch from 12 to 10 is because the rules told them they had to - for any displacement more cylinders means more you can run more rpm, and more rpm means hp.
     
  10. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,058
    The basic problem the V10 has in comparison to V8 and V12 engines is that the opposite ends of the crankshaft cannot both be at TDC at the same time. I4 can, V8 can, V12 can, I3 cannot, I5 cannot, V10 cannot.

    Consider the inline 3 cyclinder since this is the easiest engine to visualize at the crankshaft. The I3 has 3 throws on the crank one at 0, one at +120 degrees and one at +240 (== -120) degrees. The end throws are at 120 degrees with respect to each others. Any reasonable balance requires either 180 degrees or 0 degrees. So without balance weights the two ends of the crankshaft more their end in a motion not centered on the rotational axis. Balance weights on each end of the crank pull the mainbearings back in line.

    There are 5 throws at 72 degrees for a 72 degree V10 or for a 144 degree V10. Its the same problem here, each end is neither 180 not 0 degrees, but 72 degrees. Therefore weight has to be added to achieve balance.

    Notice that the V8 and V12 can have the throws at each end either 180 degrees or 0 degrees with respect to each other. Now, notice that the inner throws on both the V8 and V12 have the same properties. This prevents the motor from boxing in the plane of the cyclinder banks.

    Notice the V10 does not have this property (either)

    The Lambo Viper engine is of 90 degree configuration and uses an crankshaft throw with 18 degrees between the connecting rods on each throw. This both adds weight and subtracts strenght. In the case of the viper motor, two spark plugs are fired simultaneously causing the motor to run as a 5 double bang operation rather than a 10 individual cylinder firings.

    When the V10 was mandatd in F1 it probably was the case that this combination produced the best power to weight to fuel consumption power plant. Just because that was true at the point of conversion does not mean that it remains true to this day. And just because it may be the optimal engine for Fourmula One, it may not be an optimal road engine for any number of reasons.
     
  11. 4re gt4

    4re gt4 Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2002
    2,279
    Roseburg, OR
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    Hans E. Hansen
    So, Mitch, would it be correct to say that a V12 is a VERY good choice for high end sports cars? Balance, power, etc. as I understand it.
     
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  13. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    Which is what I said in one of the Lambo threads, and why Ferrari does not need or want to make a v10 road engine. A unrelated race series is a pathetic reason to restrict your road engine designers too ... Lambo is just trying to cash in on something it does not understand, and was nearly as useless at as Subaru was when they had a go. Not giving them a hard time for trying but real men stick at it ... and improve.

    Pete
     
  14. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,058
    A V12 is a very easy arrangement to balanced well. It is an easy engine to balance in inline I12, 60 dV12, 120 dV12 180 dV12 and horizontally oposed flat 12. A V12 (in any configuration) is the choice when you want more displacement but don't want to loose revs.

    The 120 dV12 would make a superb mid engine powerplant in dry sump format with the transmission sitting arears of the engine (or in front).
     
  15. cinquevalvole

    cinquevalvole Formula 3

    Feb 6, 2004
    1,149
    Germany, Bayern
    Don't believe in "only reason".

    Around 1996 Ferrari had the V10 on the race. FIA-Reglement said: max. 3000 cc, no turbo charging or compressor.
    But the number of cylinders wasn't limited by the FIA at this time.

    In reality Ferrari was conviced that the V10 has advantages im comparison to the V12 on a 300 km race. Ferrari was the last team with a V12 in F1. But they couldn't see a future for the V12 in F1. Drivers complained about the heavy V12: "Car feels like a truck." - and were forced to leave :-|
    As every team migrated to 10-cylinder (or V8) the FIA could limit the number of cylinders some years later without disturbing the teams.
    FIA was interested in slowing down the cars to make the competition more secuere. (smaller wheels, no slicks, smaller wings etc... slower tracks)
    Be shure that the influence of Ferrari in F1 is huge. There won't be any
    severe rule-mods by the FIA without consulting/agreement with this top team.

    I was in Monza in September 1995 and heard one of the last F1 races with
    a V12 engine - the last one in the field. (Ferrari 412T2, Gerhard Berger)
    (He didn' finish because he crashed with Alesi's camera :-()
    This was the real sound. I'll never forget it.
    (always in comparison to V10 cars in that race)
    But it's not a sound competition - you need good laptimes.

    http://www.f1total.com/db/results/result.php?y=1995&r=12

    BTW: I saw the collision Hill against Schumacher - live!
    Good tickets for us ... :)

    forza

    cinquevalvole
     

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