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Discussion in 'AviatorChat.com' started by ///Mike, Mar 17, 2017.
Yikes: Enroute A380 wake flips Challenger 604 upside down ? International Ops 2017
There is a coastal VFR route I want to do crossing right under landing planes at Sydney but there is only 1000-1500' difference between such as 380 landing and anyone doing the southern section of that route.
Sydney Victor 1 flight | Recreational Flying
Given it is a requirement that you be flying at exactly 500' there isn't much to play with in terms of upset so you'd be well advised to monitor traffic and time when you fly under the descent path for sure!
If wake turbulence from a 380 can toss a biz jet upside down and they lose 10,000' to recover I can only imagine what it would do to an LSA/RA class 2 seater with only 500' down to the drink!
Last time I was out plane spotting in Sydney I went to a location where they are only 150-200' above you and the turbulence isn't felt as being "strong" at ground level but there is an eerie jet like sound that comes with the descending air say 10-15 seconds after passing over.
I went there to personally experience the strength and nature of the wake turbulence so it must be way more significant when flying and not having 2 feet firmly on the ground and stationary.
I'm more than a little surprised/skeptical myself that this would even be possible *if* there was actually 1000 feet of separation. Hopefully some of the pros here will weigh in with their thoughts.
Yes, it definitely happened. I couldn't open the link you posted, but I was told it was bad. Serious injuries in the cabin.
We saw a fatal accident that reportedly was caused by wake turbulence from a 747 that formed a standing vortex that was still there 5 minutes after it made a low altitude pass over the runway. A small airplane performing at the show passed through it lost control and went down. I experienced the power of the wake behind a B-29 that was on final and dirty. It was like being in a washing machine.
Also different with a closing speed of 1100 mph or so, I imagine.
Your speed differential was prolly about 150 mph or so.
Is SLOP required only in the North Atlantic?
I don't know about required, but it's good practice.
Although, opposite direction wouldn't you be better off passing directly under the heavy? I think they might have been offset, which actually put them into the worst of the wake. But I don't know.
We normally dont report on individual aircraft incidents here, because the causal factors are related to a very narrow set of unique circumstances.
This instance is different, and should be of concern to all operators.
A Challenger 604 at FL350 operating from Male-Abu Dhabi passed an A380 opposite direction at FL360, one thousand feet above, about 630nm southeast of Muscat, Oman, over the Arabian Sea.
A short time later (1-2 minutes) the aircraft encountered wake turbulence sending the aircraft into an uncontrolled roll, turning the aircraft around at least 3 times (possibly even 5 times), both engines flamed out, the aircraft lost about 10,000 feet until the crew was able to recover the aircraft, restart the engines and divert to Muscat. The aircraft received damage beyond repair due to the G-forces, and was written off.
An official report is to be published by the German BFU. In the interim, the complete set of circumstances can be read at Aviation Herald.
The current synopsis is copied here:
An Emirates Airbus A380-800, most likely registration A6-EUL performing flight EK-412 from Dubai (United Arab Emirates) to Sydney,NS (Australia), was enroute at FL350 about 630nm southeast of Muscat (Oman) and about 820nm northwest of Male (Maldives) at about 08:40Z when a business jet passed underneath in opposite direction. The A380 continued the flight to Sydney without any apparent incident and landed safely.
The business jet, a MHS Aviation (Munich) Canadair Challenger 604 registration D-AMSC performing flight MHV-604 from Male (Maldives) to Abu Dhabi (United Arab Emirates) with 9 people on board, was enroute over the Arabian Sea when an Airbus A380-800 was observed by the crew passing 1000 feet above. After passing underneath the A380 at about 08:40Z the crew lost control of the aircraft as result of wake turbulence from the A380 and was able to regain control of the aircraft only after losing about 10,000 feet. The airframe experienced very high G-Loads during the upset, a number of occupants received injuries during the upset. After the crew managed to stabilize the aircraft the crew decided to divert to Muscat (Oman), entered Omani Airspace at 14:10L (10:10Z) declaring emergency and reporting injuries on board and continued for a landing in Muscat at 15:14L (11:14Z) without further incident. A number of occupants were taken to a hospital, one occupant was reported with serious injuries. The aircraft received damage beyond repair and was written off.
Omans Civil Aviation Authority had told Omani media on Jan 8th 2017, that a private German registered aircraft had performed an emergency landing in Muscat on Jan 7th 2017 declaring emergency at 14:10L (10:10Z) and landing in Muscat at 15:14L (11:14Z). The crew had declared emergency due to injuries on board and problems with an engine (a number of media subsequently reported the right hand engine had failed, another number of media reported the left hand engine had failed).
According to information The Aviation Herald received on March 4th 2017 the CL-604 passed 1000 feet below an Airbus A380-800 while enroute over the Arabian Sea, when a short time later (1-2 minutes) the aircraft encountered wake turbulence sending the aircraft in uncontrolled roll turning the aircraft around at least 3 times (possibly even 5 times), both engines flamed out, the Ram Air Turbine could not deploy possibly as result of G-forces and structural stress, the aircraft lost about 10,000 feet until the crew was able to recover the aircraft exercising raw muscle force, restart the engines and divert to Muscat.
The Aviation Herald is currently unable to substantiate details of the occurrence, no radar data are available for the business jet, it is therefore unclear when the business jet departed from Male and where the actual rendezvouz with the A380 took place. Based on the known time of the occurrence at 08:40Z as well as the time when the CL-604 reached Omani Airspace declaring emergency and landed in Muscat, as well as which A380s were enroute over the Arabian Sea around that time The Aviation Herald believes the most likely A380 was EK-412 and the rendezvouz took place 630nm southeast of Muscat, which provides the best match of remaining flying time (2.5 hours) and distance for the CL-604 also considering rather strong northwesterly winds (headwind for the CL-604, tailwind for the A380s).
On Jan 7th 2017 there were also other A380-800s crossing the Arabian Sea from northwest to southeast: a Qantas A380-800, registration VH-OQJ performing flight QF-2 from Dubai to Sydney, was enroute at FL330 about 1000nm southeast of Muscat and about 400nm northwest of Male at 08:40Z. An Emirates A380-800 registration A6-EDO performing flight EK-406 from Dubai to Melbourne,VI (Australia) was enroute at FL350 about 470nm southeast of Muscat at 08:40Z. Another Emirates A380-800 registration A6-EUH performing flight EK-424 from Dubai to Perth,WA (Australia), was enroute at FL350 about 350nm southeast of Muscat at 08:40z.
The Aviation Herald received information that Air Traffic Control all around the globe have recently been instructed to exercise particular care with A380s crossing above other aircraft. The Aviation Herald had already reported a number of Wake Turbulence Encounters involving A380s before:
Incident: Virgin Australia B738 near Bali on Sep 14th 2012, wake turbulence from A380
Incident: Air France A320 and Emirates A388 near Frankfurt on Oct 14th 2011, wake turbulence
Accident: British Airways A320 and Qantas A388 near Braunschweig on Oct 16th 2011, wake turbulence injures 4
Report: Antonov A124, Singapore A388 and Air France B744 near Frankfurt on Feb 10th 2011, wake turbulence by A388 causes TCAS RA
Report: REX SF34 at Sydney on Nov 3rd 2008, wake turbulence injures one
Incident: Armavia A320 near Tiblisi on Jan 11th 2009, turbulence at cruise level thought to be A380 wake
MHS Aviation told The Aviation Herald, that they can not provide any further details due to the ongoing investigation, Germanys BFU is investigating the occurrence (which confirmed The Aviation Heralds assumption, that the occurrence was over international waters, Germany as state of registration of the accident aircraft thus being responsible for the investigation).
Authorities in Oman have so far not responded to inquiries by The Aviation Herald.
In response to our inquiry summarizing the known information so far as described above (however, mistakenly assuming the date of the occurrence was Jan 8th 2017 based on the information thus far) Germanys BFU confirmed that they are leading the investigation. The occurrence happened already on Jan 7th 2017 at 08:40Z. The BFU is unable to provide further details at this time (in particular to which A380 caused the wake turbulence) because these details are subject to investigation. By Mar 8th 2017 no safety recommendations have yet been issued by the BFU. A preliminary report is estimated to be included in the January 2017 bulletin (which according to tradition should be released by mid of March 2017, however, the release of the Jan bulletin can currently not be estimated because so far only the August 2016 bulletin has been released by the BFU, the remaining 2016 bulletins are still being worked on).
You don't cross behind and below a large airplane, especially if it is in dirty configuration. Same applies if it is in full cruise. Big airplanes leave a violent wake and worse if it is in a pull up. I also have heard and felt the weird swishing sounds of the air stabilizing after the passage of big equipment or fast fighters near M.1
Came across this on AvHerald
Bombardier put out a bulletin about the incident. They said that only one engine flamed out.
Ah, well no big deal then.
Well, except for all the new underwear needed.
Apparently there was quite a bit of blood as well.
The original report was a bit confusing, because with both engines out and no RAT, the airplane isn't controllable. So they would have crashed.
Supposedly what the inside looked like after according to https://www.facebook.com/flightservicebureau/photos/a.1050965864916787.1073741828.1050961768250530/1583855598294475/?type=3&theater
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I pass big commercial airliners in cruise with 1000 feet of separation all the time. Never even a bump. We were so close not long ago I'll bet I could have waved to them.... nothing.
Below or above?
So I'm curious.....how do smaller aircraft handle wake turbies when they are refueling? I'm guessing that it's not a problem for boom refueling but the wing mounted drogue refueling systems seem like they would place the refueling aircraft right in the middle of it. In particular refueling things like helicopters would seem problematic.
Just curious if it's even a provlem
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In this photo it appears to me that the helicopter is above the turbulent zone. The refueling aircraft's flaps are deployed and I assume that they have deflected the airflow downward enough and the helicopter is above the turbulence. Just an analysis of a viewer.
Don't worry, sooner or later you'll hit a wake. Then you'll have a better understanding.
Unlikely. Haven't you followed any of his posts? He flies a Pilatus; the single greatest aircraft ever made. He's impervious to weather, weight limits, time constrictions, and, apparently, wake turbulence. If Superman was a plane, he would be a Pilatus.
I was thinking back about the smoke trail and contrails from a B-52. They appear to be at an angle of about 20 to 25 degrees downward from the line of flight. And the larger the aircraft, the worse the turbulence. They bore a big hole in the air and the air doesn't like it and it scrambles around trying to fill it. I'll never forget the low level pass by 4 CF-101's at the '66 Abottsford air show. They were near Mach 1 and on afterburner and after they were gone the air was making the weirdest wheezing and swishing sounds that I had ever heard. It lasted for quite a while. When they went by it was like getting hit with a big pillow and then the noise started. Wisely, they prohibited that next year because it scared so many women and children. The Canucks always put on a great flying display. They are almost as nuts as the Aussies.