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Warranty on a Tracked 488

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by mdrums, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. mdrums

    mdrums Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2006
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    So...I come from the Porsche world and use to track my Porsche’s 10-15 events a year. I currently have a 991 GT3 and seem to only track 2 to maybe 4 days total a year. Been a track guy for 14 years, run as a instructor or advanced solo.

    Porsche has always been pretty cool with non modified cars fixing things under warranty...but then again out of 6 Porsche’s I’ve had and tracked only 2 issues....1 was a cracked weld on a header and the other was a leak on the PDK transmission.

    So I’ve always wanted to try out a Ferrari and have a line on a new left over 488. New car warranty and 7yr maintenance.

    How is Ferrari on warranty issues on a non mod’d 488 that might see a day or 2 a year at a track?

    How is a 488GTB on the track? Brake cooling, transmissions cooling issues?

    Only thing I plan on doing is lowering stock suspensions and Co order balance and alignment. I’ll get a 2nd set of wheels/tires for the track.
     
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  3. waynelawson

    waynelawson Rookie

    Nov 20, 2016
    39
    UK
    not sure about the us. But here in the uk my dealer seems content that I take it on track in a limited and non abusive way. There are Ferrari organised track events over here so would be a bit rich to encourage us onto the dealer track days and then act funny with us taking cars on track. At the end of the day these are road cars but they are competent track cars too, just not all day every day... don’t overheat them and show it some mechanical sympathy. Hell, last service I had the techs came round to shake my hand, they hardly see a car that goes through tyres and pads like mine....
     
  4. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Warranty is voided in the US unless it's a Ferrari event. Perhaps your dealer would help you out but you never know. Theoriicaly it shouldn't break.
     
  5. gobble

    gobble Formula 3
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    Warranty is voided if you take an unmodified Ferrari to the track for a driving school day???
     
  6. mdrums

    mdrums Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2006
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    I asked my dealer these questions....no answer from them.

    McLaren warranties there car if tracked as long as no mods. Porsche has track set up advise in the owners manual for the GT3 cars so they seem to be ok.

    Really want to own and enjoy a Ferrari but a garage Queen and was is not my idea of a good fun experience. I take great care of my cars, cleaning and maintenance but love to drive them and feel the performance too
     
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  8. FordGTDriver

    FordGTDriver Formula Junior
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    Jun 9, 2007
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    My dealer here in the States regularly sponsors track days for its Ferrari clientele. First, in direct answer to the OP's question, I've never seen a Ferrari at these track events have any sort of problem to mention. Second, based on my interactions with my dealer, they would never deny warranty coverage to a car that they had invited to attend one of their events, providing the car was used within the bounds of its intended purpose. Ferrari regularly and vigorously markets its cars for recreational track use, and from a legal perspective, at least here in the U.S., they would have a very difficult time denying warranty coverage resulting from that use. Such a denial would be the equivalent of refusing to warranty a piano because someone played it. However, when that usage is unreasonable, abusive, or non-recreational, it seems they may have justification for denial.

    On a personal note, I had become quite burned out on track days a few years ago; the wear on the tires, the brakes, and my marriage was untenable. However, I discovered something interesting last season: I have a blast when I drive 7/10 and go as slow as I wanna. I waive the other testosterone crazed loonies past me and have fun at my own, laughably slow pace. I now focus a lot more on cornering limits, maintaining momentum, and the right line, as opposed to wide open throttle blasts down the main straight and standing on the carbon brakes lap after lap. What a revelation.
     
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  9. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2014
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    doesitmatter
    Easiest way is to check the warranty book .

    a summary ; Ferrari covers warranty at Ferrari sponsored track events . They can deny any claim outside these events . The wording is pretty specific

    Porsche ; “we may” warranty and that is also “we may” for Porsche related events . There are stories out there where Porsche denied warranty coverage


    mclaren ; do the track inspections and you are covered at any hpde day and mclaren related track events

    dealers may look the other way but they are supposed to police themselves . Sometimes depending on what the problem is then the manufacture gets involved and they start asking the questions and start denying warranty claims . They will even charge back or deny warranty claims from dealer if they suspect you have run afoul of the warranty guidelines
     
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  10. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    EXACTLY
     
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  11. s313

    s313 Rookie

    Oct 9, 2015
    29
    In my experience, brake cooling was an issue: went through several sets of pads, and car had 20%+ rotor wear at 2,500 miles (of which first 600 miles were at below 5,000RPM, numerous track days thereafter). 14 months ownership.
     
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  13. ipsedixit

    ipsedixit Formula Junior

    A better question might be how Ferrari would be able to show that you had tracked the 488.
     
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  14. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Tire heat cycle wear, track debris paint abrasion in key areas, pad wear, rapid rotor wear, evidence of multiple pad exchanges. ECU-stored heat, RPM, and braking data as well as TCU stored attributes. Rim and lug wear from mutiple tire changes. Heck they could even see the pictures of you at the track that you posted on-line. I think their mechanics can spot a car that has been tracked pretty easily compared to all the garage queens and DDs they see every day.
     
  15. wrs

    wrs F1 Veteran
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    Still have to prove it, everything except the picture at the track is circumstantial and what you are suggesting they might have stored in the ECU is speculation on your part and still circumstantial. My dealer has regular track events that they invite me to and which I attend, how would those be any different than some other event? There is no speed limit and they have fast and slow groups at the Ferrari events.
     
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  16. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2014
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    doesitmatter
    Everything Solid state said is correct. Check your warranty book. It is very, very specific. This is what anyone will go back to when things go sideways as to whether to cover or not.

    The computer systems of all modern cars store a lot and I mean a lot of data. It isn't difficult at all for them to figure it out. I had an event at a track day and it was a temporary issue and I had the dealer take a look at it. There was no check engine light. The car just wouldn't give me throttle. After a start/re-start it resumed to normal. When it came back to the dealer they were able to find the particular event. They knew exactly what speed I was at and what gear I was in when it happened. The car was driven about 100 miles after this event before the dealer got to it.

    There has been a number of people who have been outed driving in non-intended purposes via pictures from social media. This cannot be hidden.
     
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  17. wrs

    wrs F1 Veteran
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    Like I said, the picture would be evidence. The "event" information you are so impressed with doesn't take much storage at all and it's specific to a limp mode condition which is often due to heat stress. I imagine that data snapshot would be stored, but again, how does one prove it's due to the operating condition of the car? I had a BMW that went limp on me regularly and the dealer kept replacing different items to try to eliminate the problem. Tells me they don't know that much other than the fact the car went into limp mode.

    If you know something specific about what the car actually stores and how much then I would be interested to hear it, otherwise, it's speculation.

    I should also add that I regularly tracked my 991tts and took it to the drag strip. I had a secondary cooling system failure while at the dragstrip. Car was under warranty and Porsche replaced the parts and did the labor under warranty. They knew I tracked the car.
     
  18. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2014
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    doesitmatter
    Sigh.....

    Everybody talks like a hero until something happens and then they learn hard lessons.

    As I said. Check your warranty book. If you stay in this system long enough, get to know enough people you'll learn a whole bunch of things that are contrary to what you are saying.

    From Porsche warranty information:

    https://www.porsche.com/usa/accessoriesandservices/porscheservice/vehicleinformation/warranty/
    • Parts that fail due to lack of required maintenance or use of non-PCNA

    distributed parts.

    • Normal wear or deterioration of any part.

    • Cleaning and polishing.

    • Improper use or contamination of fuels, lubricants, or other fluids.

    • Lubricants, unless part of a warranty repair.

    • Air conditioner refrigerant charge after the first three months of service

    unless part of a warranty repair.

    • Glass breakage, chips and/or scratches that are not due to a defect

    in material or workmanship.

    • Appearance items that are not due to a defect in material or workmanship.

    • Any car registered or normally driven outside of the United States and

    Canada.

    • The replacement of expendable maintenance items (such as spark

    plugs, filters, worn wiper blades, worn brakes, worn clutches, worn

    tires) when the replacement is not due to a defect in material or workmanship.

    • The adding of any fluids unless they are needed as part of a warranty repair.

    • Any car with an odometer that has been altered so that the actual

    mileage cannot be determined.

    • Dealer-installed accessories not distributed by PCNA. (Refer to the Replacement

    Parts and Accessories Limited Warranty in this Booklet.)

    • Wheel balancing and wheel alignment beyond the first three months of

    service unless part of a warranty repair.

    • Unauthorized modifications or vehicles with total loss or salvage titles.

    • Modifications not authorized by PCNA.

    • Service adjustments (such as idle speed, air/fuel mixture, brake,

    clutch, headlight, and drive belts) beyond the first three months of

    service unless part of a warranty repair.

    • Improper repairs by someone other than an authorized Porsche

    dealer of PCNA.

    • Abuse, accident, acts of God, competition, racing, track use, or other

    events.

    Note 1: Components and/or parts that fail during racing or driving

    events (including Porsche sponsored events) may not be covered by the

    new car Limited Warranty.


    Note 2: You should also be aware that PCNA may deny you warranty

    coverage if your vehicle or a part has failed due to abuse, neglect, improper

    maintenance or unapproved modifications.

    • Minor wind noise and insignificant seepage at the joints between

    the top and the body, or door windows in Cabriolet,

    hardtop, or Targa models cannot be completely avoided under

    all circumstances. Your Cabriolet should not be washed in a

    car wash and may experience damage to the top or rear window

    due to the scratching by the brushes or may experience

    leaks due to the high pressure water streams directed in areas

    which would not experience water in normal driving conditions.

    • It is normal for debris to collect at the base of the windshield and

    where the cabriolet roof joins the body of your Porsche vehicle,

    as well as around the sunroof opening. It is extremely important

    that you have the drains for the sunroof, cabriolet roof, and vehicle

    front cowl body drains (as applicable based upon your

    10

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Information stored in Mac cars from the owner's manual:


    Stored data

    There are a number of components in your

    vehicle which collect data and store it

    temporarily or permanently. This technical

    data provides information relating to areas

    such as the condition of the vehicle, any

    events which have taken place and any

    malfunctions your vehicle may be

    experiencing or has experienced in the past.

    These include, for example:

    • operating conditions of system

    components, e.g. fluid levels.

    • the vehicle’s status messages and

    those of its individual components, e.g.

    ‘Windscreen washer fluid low’.

    • malfunctions and defects in important

    system components, e.g. ‘Light switch

    fault’.

    • vehicle reactions and operating

    conditions in special driving situations,

    e.g. air bag deployment.

    • ambient conditions, e.g. outside

    temperature.

    This data is of an exclusively technical

    nature and can be used to:

    • assist in recognizing and rectifying

    faults and defects.

    • analyze vehicle functions, e.g. after an

    accident.

    • optimize vehicle functions.

    The data cannot be used to trace the

    vehicle’s movements.

    When your vehicle is serviced, technical

    information can be read from the vehicle

    including:

    • repair service history.

    • warranty events.

    • quality assurance.

    This information can be read by employees

    of the service network (including

    manufacturers) using special diagnostic

    testers. More detailed information can be

    obtained from it, if required.

    After a fault has been rectified, the

    information is deleted from the fault

    memory or is continually overwritten.

    When operating the vehicle, situations may

    occur where technical data, in connection

    with other information, could be traced to a

    person.

    Examples include:
    accident reports.

    • damage to the vehicle.

    • witness statements.

    McLaren will not access your behavior

    related information about a crash event or

    share it with others except:

    • with the consent of you or, if the

    vehicle is leased, of the lessee.

    • in response to an official request of

    police or similar government office.

    • as part of the manufacturer’s defense

    in case of legal proceedings.

    • as required by law.

    In addition, McLaren may use the collected

    or received diagnostic data:

    • for McLaren research needs.

    • to make it available for research needs

    where appropriate confidentiality is

    maintained and need is shown.

    • to share summary data which is not tied

    to a specific vehicle with other

    organizations for research purposes.
     
  19. wrs

    wrs F1 Veteran
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    Jul 11, 2015
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    Not sure what you are trying to say here. Porsche fixed the secondary cooling system problem under warranty even though my car had been tracked and the failure happened while at the drag strip. How does that fit your narrative?
     
  20. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    What the OEM will cover depends on policy but more importantly your relationship with the dealer. If you have excellent buying, service and warranty purchase history then you may get support for items out of warranty or were otherwise indicated as not covered. Some service areas may do the coverage under warranty and submit to OEM so they keep their department revenue up. This has occurred in my experience.

    What's stored in the various ECUs and ECMs is a function of the tier supplier and not the OEM. The tier owns the designs and the code and many of the boxes run complex operating systems. Many parameters are stored in non-volatile memory for the purpose of warranty, test, maintenance and forensics. There are up to 100 million lines of collective code in a modern vehicle and lots of space to store data and features many of which are included in the system and not enabled.

    I do know of specific data related to speed, RPM, temp, distance/speed in each gear, telematics and user account information, security, emissions, etc. that are stored as standard on many large tier ECUs and ECMs. The supplier of the diagnostic software provides for access to this data. In some cases, especially in Europe, repair shops and performance tuners run bootleg versions of diagnostic software they use to sidestep licensing.

    As far as identifying a raced car, what I posted was exactly what I look for to determine which cars to avoid. Some of this I discovered throughout the years myself and some told to me by service departments, track personnel and more recently detailers. To them its very obvious. Ultimately its up to OEM policy and your relationship what gets covered under warranty.
     
  21. wrs

    wrs F1 Veteran
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    I don't disagree with what you are saying but I don't think the storage for data on the car is very large. The nvrams aren't that big and while there are plenty of data points from sensors that can be collected, they aren't continuously collected and stored. If an event occurs, a snapshot is taken and stored, that is what I am saying. As to wear on brakes and other items, those can wear from hard driving as well. I took good care of my 991tts even though I tracked it. The oil was changed after each event and I replaced the pads more than once, same for the tires.

    I think it does have a lot to do with the dealer. When the secondary cooling system failure occurred I was willing to pay for it and told the service rep that and he said, no, I will get it done on warranty and he did. Either way I wasn't going to have an issue with it. I think the warranty coverage issue has a lot to do with the dealer and your relationship with them. I didn't buy my Porsche from the dealer in Austin but they were really good with the service.

    With Ferrari I haven't tracked my cars as much and I haven't had any warranty issues with my 488. I had an issue with my Cali T HS when it was only a couple of months old that was a roof sensor and that was a warranty issue but nothing else. I think if people track their cars they should expect to pay extra upkeep.
     
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  22. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Rookie
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    Brakes work fine but wear fast. Two days on Spa is equal to almost two sets of pads. Never heard of anybody overheating.
    I've seen direct comparisons to the GT3RS and the 488 is fantastic - and faster.

    My buddy had his 488 Spider and GT3RS at Knutstorp in Sweden about two months ago, and one of the seasoned instructors there got his first drive in a 488 that day. He had driven the GT3RS before, and he was absolutely blown away with the 488 to the point of shock. How a car that felt that nice to drive could also drive so fast and so well. I can only imagine the leap from a GT3 to a GTB instead of a Spider will be even more significant. One thing I personally don't like about the GT3RS is how it runs out of power up on top. About 7500 or so, it really loses the puff, and I would imagine that the GT3 with less power and smaller displacement would do this more. In this regard, the 488 just keeps pulling. Some may not like the sound, but the way it puts the power it has down, is simply just amazing. I would advise you to PPF the car fully, and also perhaps purchase some quality track wheels that are less expensive to ruin whenever you get in the gravel. If you damage one wheel beyond repair, Ferrari has a tendency to want to see you a complete set, which is utterly ridiculous. So something like the OZ Sueprforgiata or Forgeline GA1R Open is a great choice.

    As for warranty? Never heard of issues here in northern Europe, but as has been stated above, it seems to be different in the US. Not sure if it has to do with people seem to track their Ferraris less in the US which makes it less common and thus dealers and FNA are more sensitive about it.
     
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  23. mdrums

    mdrums Formula Junior

    Jun 11, 2006
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    Mike
    Thanks everyone for replying to my post. I talked with the dealer today and feel confident that the Ferrari warranty is pretty much just like my Porsche warranties. I am scheduled for a test drive and see what the dealer will give me on trade for my 2018 GT3. Fingers crossed...LOL
     
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  24. sampelligrino

    sampelligrino Formula Junior

    Apr 16, 2017
    881
    I went from an 18 GT3 to my 19 GTB earlier this year and no looking back, I'm hooked. Hope it works out for you and keep us posted
     
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