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what happened to 0446 & 0424

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by tongascrew, Sep 30, 2007.

  1. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    895
    Dear Robert,
    I agree with you, we know which real cars both MD are,,,but DNA and identity,,can be different things nowadays!

    I agree also that no factory will admit re stamping or using again a previous identity, hence certification in extremis of ( what is generally believed to be) 564MD under the number 424MD as this is what is stamped and this is what was on the ( 1975 from Ferrari spa to Du Montant ) invoice. Without this invoice it would have been impossible to certify the car. I know for a fact. I also believe they may know that the PF series 1 will never re appear, may be because they know they destroyed it, who knows! There is a very good picture of the original 424MD on the cover of the Maurice Louche book, Emotion Ferrari.

    PS won't make it to Cavallino, doing MM, Tour Auto, Le Mans Classic, this is my program and the annual pilgrimage to Monterey / Pebble Beach so still hope we can find a suitable place for lunch/ dinner.
    Best regards
    Pierre
     
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  3. Lupivibo

    Lupivibo Rookie

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    #27 Lupivibo, Feb 15, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Dear Pierre,

    Would you have any photos of Harry Schell driving your Mondial. Since he was very proud to use his French passport as an American I was wondering if there was a link for his willingness to drive both your ex and the Admiral Mondial in French Blu color for the French teams.

    I also find it amazing that RM Sotheby's did not use Harry Schell driving of the car as further propaganda particularly with the auction being in America.

    This is a photo that Manuel Taboada has found for me via his friend Gianni cancelierri.

    Best regards,
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  4. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    I could be wrong, but Harry Schell did not drive 0564(0424)MD. Schell drove the #60 car in the Imola Shell Cup race in '55; it is the red car at the lower left of the photo. In June of '55, 0564(0424) was French Racing Blue. Our car, 0556(0446)MD was also French Racing Blue and can be clearly seen towards the back of the grid in that much lighter color (#66) driven to 5th OA by Munaron.

    I suspect the reason you may believe that Schell drive 0564(0424) in that race is that Barchetta.cc shows it. However, a lot of the info on the Series II Mondials found in various Barchetta listings comes straight from our 1991 Cavallino articles on these cars. Unfortunately, the description of what S.II cars were in what races in those articles represented our best guesses at that time. Subsequent research has revealed that the Barchetta entries for 0564(0424) for Imola, Caserta and Messina are all incorrect (and which, except for Imola, were all from our 1991 Cavallino articles - we showed "s/n unknown" for Schell at Imola).

    Can anyone enlighten me as to which car (#60) Schell actually drove at the '55 Imola Shell Cup?
     
  5. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    895
    I also researched when I owned the car, and could not find any evidence of those races. And never heard of Schell racing it, but I might be wrong.
    I have a doubt though for Messina as I found pictures of Mondial in Messina 10 hours , but could no confirm which chassis number it was.
     
  6. Lupivibo

    Lupivibo Rookie

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    My conclusions which can of course be wrong were made after I read the Massini report on the car which state the following:

    19/06/1955 Raced at the Shell Cup in Imola by Harry Schell, placed 3rd
    June 1955 Raced at Caserta, Sicily, by Mancini, placed 4th
    July 1955 Raced at the 10 Hours Notturne di Messina by Crepaldi and Mancini, placed 5th OA and 3rd in class

    Sorry Marcel for using it explicitly here hope I'm not breaking any copyrights. Probably Marcel could enlighten us a bit here and maybe that explains RM auctions not risking to use Harry Schell name as driver of the 0424 which is a pity as I was looking for a relationship between him driving 0424 and 0446.
     
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  8. Lupivibo

    Lupivibo Rookie

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    Dear Bryan,

    Can you let me know which Cavallino magazine number from 1991 was that so that I can get it?

    Also do you know of any further mention on Cavallino about 0564 (0424)?
     
  9. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    Dec 30, 2006
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    Cavallino 61 & 62.
     
  10. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie
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    #33 Boudewijn, Feb 16, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The Messina entry was #0446MD(0556MD).
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  11. Lupivibo

    Lupivibo Rookie

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    Boudewijn

    Barchetta.cc mentions the number on the car for 0556 (0446MD) Messina races to be number 23 and if it was French Blue for Imola it cant be this car for Messina as it looks red right?
     
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  13. Lupivibo

    Lupivibo Rookie

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    In fact barchetta.cc mentions 0564MD (0424) to be driven by Crepaldi and Mancini with number 25 which cant be right either for the same reasons as the car is definitely red.
     
  14. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie
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    When you compare the photos of the cars at Bari GP 16 May 1955 De Graffenried no14, GP Lisboa Monsanto 24 July 1955 Sales no15, and 10 Ore Notturna di Messina 24-25 July 1955 G.Mancini-Crepaldi no25 you will notice they are the same: 0446MD renumbered 0556MD, a 735 Mondial. Barchetta.cc has much info but certainly is not the holy grail.
     
  15. Admiral Goodwrench

    Admiral Goodwrench Formula Junior

    Mar 2, 2005
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    #37 Admiral Goodwrench, Feb 16, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The attached photo from the Munaron book shows 0556(0446)/MD before the ninth hour at the 10 hours of Messina with Munaron driving.

    Best regards,

    Robert
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  16. Lupivibo

    Lupivibo Rookie

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    Thanks Admiral. That confirms it I suppose. Your car French Blue with number 23 at Messina by Munaron which means number 25 driven by Crepaldi is not your car and can't be 0564 (0424) as the car is clearly red in Boudewjn picture.

    Harry Schell presence at Imola with 0564 (0424) remains in doubt but highly unlikely. Hopefully Marcel Massini can clarify.
     
  17. Admiral Goodwrench

    Admiral Goodwrench Formula Junior

    Mar 2, 2005
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    That photo of Munaron from his book had a significant impact on my search for the historical roots of my car. In the eighties I knew that the first owner was Francoise Picard, and that Robert Ready Davis was the man from whom I bought the car in 1960. That left quite an ownership gap. I received the Munaron book on the 4 cylinder Ferraris in the late 80's and about six months later I was walking past the piano where this book was opened to the page on Messina, but it was upside down. At that time I had no idea what car that was. From that perspective I noticed something on the front tire which turned out to be a chalk marking of "Maret" which in turn linked me back to the co-driver with Picard at the GP of Paris. That simple finding advanced the ownership trail to the fall of 55. It still took several years (pre-World Wide Web) to get the complete story, like a good mystery novel.

    Best regards,

    Robert
     
  18. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie
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    #40 Boudewijn, Feb 16, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    HR photo with Maret text at the bottum.
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  19. Lupivibo

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    #41 Lupivibo, Mar 30, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi guys,

    Cavallino just arrived in the post and I was wondering what was your opinion on how many 500 Mondial Scaglietti Spyder are there left?
    If the magazine is correct we are speaking about only 5 left and maybe 3 ?? with original engine that is 0446 and 0424.
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  20. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    Are you talking about the seven Series II Mondials in the list? Yes, we agree that there are 5 still driving around, three of which have their original motors - 0556(0446)MD, 0564(0424)MD, and 0580.
     
  21. Lupivibo

    Lupivibo Rookie

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    Hi Brian,

    Yes I was talking about that. I was wondering because the last page of Cavallino mentions 10 built in total but now that clarifies the issue I suppose. That's really a very low number which makes the Mondial even more coveted I suppose.

    Trying to chase a bit more history about 0424 with ACI Storico in Italy.

    Do you know who owns 0580?
     
  22. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    The number of Series II 500 Mondials varies depending who you talk to. Cavallino uses ten, my father and I have mostly used eight. Mr. Boe uses seven since his criteria for the cars on the list is how they left the Factory originally. We usually include 0562 on our list since it left the Factory after the Ascari crash w/ the tipo 111 2-liter motor, but it is true that the Factory originally called it a 750 Monza.

    What makes it difficult to be definitive about some of these cars is that the Tipo 111 2-liter and Tipo 119 motors were direct swap-in motors; same mounts, etc. So the Factory was swapping 2-liter and 3-liter motors with some frequency in 1955.

    As far as I know, Caggiati owns 0580; at least he did in mid-2014.
     
  23. Ferri

    Ferri Formula Junior

    Dec 26, 2004
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    0580MD & 0438MD (from the Cavallino article shown) are in the same USA ownership.

    Regards, Hugo
     
  24. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    brain fart - I knew that. Had a chat w/ his restorer recently.
     
  25. Lupivibo

    Lupivibo Rookie

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    Guys one sensible subject,

    I have noticed in the past some differencies to the tail light positioning of the Mondial series 2. Was it done different as per client specification/country or request depending on the race.

    Does anyone have pictures of the car from the rear in the original configuration?
     
  26. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    #48 Bryanp, Apr 11, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  27. Lupivibo

    Lupivibo Rookie

    Jul 4, 2015
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    Bryan do you happen to know if the reasons for the different configurations would be to go accordingly to the country where the car sold to or to the type of race (circuit, marathon, hill climb)?

    have you found any pattern?
     
  28. richardowen

    richardowen Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2004
    837
    Montreal, Canada
    Anyone have images of 0528MD at the Mille Miglia?
     

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